Those Nutty Missionaries

I wonder if many of those missionaries and scholars who have got Ph.D. degrees (e.g. William Foxwell Albright has been known having about 30 doctoral degrees in archeology, philology, Near Eastern studies, linguistics, etc.) are narrow-minded and fanatic. Is possible that Christianity doesn’t have enough scientific or sound basis of its doctrines?

They also are pushing a religion with very little interest to the Thai people.

I went to a Buddhist temple with a Thai friend and lit some incense and afterwards she asked me if I was a Christian. I told her I was (actually I’m Catholic but didn’t feel explaining the difference would be of much help) and she asked how I could possibly pay honor to Buddha. She told me that her other Christian friends refuse to go anywhere near a temple ceremony. I told her it was because I was confident enough in what I believe in that I could respect Buddha and what he stood for without worshiping him.

Being a Quaker-Christian, I really need to say, I am ashamed about what Christian Missionaries do here in Thailand – no matter wether they are foreign or Thai.

I do not stay in Bangkok but in the largest town in the Northeast of Thailand. I know the Protestant Christian Seminary here and their methods.

1. Students, mostly Issan or Lao or Hmong and poor must pay fees for a five-year curriculum. Fees are between 8.000 and 15.000 Baht. 4th year means internship in a church.

2. Their bedrooms do miss every standard. They live 3 or 4 in one room with ironbeds, but no locker or something like that. A lot of things get stolen, mostly money and mobile phones. The bathrooms, that they have to share, lacks a standard-working water system. Their are 4 showers (that mostly do not work due to the poor water system!) for 40 students in one floor. No washing machine or anything like that. It is forbidden to wash clothes in Sundays. It is also forbidden to play music on Sundays.

3. Food is never enough. Once a time during the term, their Thai and foreign teachers teach them not to eat to worship God. They then will not eat breakfast and lunch and only get boiled Rice Soup for dinner. This for a day long. During a week, there are about two or three days they only get boiled rice soup for breakfast. Lunch and Dinner never is enough, so these already poor students must go to eat additionally outside that seminary.

4. They must attend chapel every morning from Tuesday to Friday. Than the study different subjects during morning, have one hour break and study in the afternoon. 4 p. m. they have to do cleaning work inside and outside the buildings for at least thirty minutes. Then, there is sport or music activity. 6 p. m. is dinner and 7 p. m. Homework time till 10 p. m. Then, they are expected to turn off the light.

5. Students there will be used for every stupid work. Beside that, the Seminary has a caretaker and cleaning personal and one cook. One cook for about 100 people there to feed! Male students must be watchman during the night. I do not know if they get paid for that or not. Sometimes, the teachers and the other staff order the students to clean their houses as well. But mostly, the students get paid for that work.

6. The students get brainwashed there. Some of them start disliking Buddhists. They sometimes pray til midnight. Even sleeping in the praying rooms or in front of them during night. They just stay in their Christian community lacking Buddhist friends. Most families send their children to Christian schools or wish so. They do not want the kids being influenced from Buddhists. It is a community locking their doors.

To summarize. This seminary is a true lie. Because.

1. The teachers and preachers tell the students they should live like poor people – like Jesus said. But the teachers by themselves have everything – Mobile phone, car, computers, notebooks, washing machine, cooker, juweles, own houses (3.000.000 Baht)and hundred of clothes (especially the foreign teachers). The students have to iron the clothes. This is the first lie.

2. They get taught that everybody is equal in front of God. But I have never seen a teacher cleaning a student toilet or bathroom. Beside that, teachers do have washing machines and such things, students are not expected to do so. Foreign teachers get double and more salary of that what Thais do get. The Thai cook, caretaker and cleaning personal get 5000 Baht per months. This is equality. And this is the second lie.

…

There would be much more to say. But I am afraid, this will be too long. Lets have a short talk about the churches.

I can tell you, here is no church I can go. Of course, there is no Quaker Community. I think, it is not neccessary for me, too. for me, I do no mission at all for I respect Buddhist religion. I even went to a temple to practise meditation for I think, that meditation is something everybody can do no matter what religion.

I sometimes went to a Thai protestant church, but always felt (and still feel) very uncomfortable with this institutions. I know Thai, so it is not neccessary for me to go to a church preaching in English. There are some reasons I feel uncomfortable with Christianity in Thailand.

1. Most of the preachers in this church, (Thais) preach extemly aggressive and loud. They always critizise Buddhists and unfaithful people telling you these people are bad and untrustful.

2. Asking them to speak clearly and repeat the song numbers, so that I would be able to find the song that they will be singing, it hardly happened that someone was taking care of my handycap. This is the way, Thai Christians taking care for their fellows. (Even though I am Quaker, but okay).

3. Preaching and worship style is quite american, loud music, always microphone, no need to dress accordingly. Even the preacher does not. There are a lot of brainwashing methods like praying loudly, touching others and always using emotions. It looks very uncivilized. Corean missionaries are extremly aggressive, so that their Buddhist neighbours cannot sleep during the night. They worship God till midnight with loud music, preaching and crying. Swedish missionaries once had a mission session in front of a Thai temple. They came to heal handicapped people. The Thais took my arms and pushed and pulled me to the stairs becaus of my handicap. I could not defend myself, but told them that I do not want to go there. Luckily, I did not need to go on the stairs. All the broken, the handicapped or the ill stand in a line and the missionaries came in front of them to heal them with their hands. Then, the Swedish and American missionaries took oil, laid their hands on my … and prayed loudly. Than, they asked me if I could … do better. I said no. They prayed again. Again they asked me and my answer was negative. So one said, I do not believe enough in God, the other said, Welll, sometimes God will not come to everybody to heal. And so on. They were unsuccessful with me, so they let me go. But another handicapped fellow had not enough luck. He was an old Thai man, leg-handicapped and could not walk. The missionaries did the same with this man. He could go a little. Because of their success, they pulled this old man in the stairs and showing the public that they are really able to cure handicaps and illness. After the show, this old man did collapse behind the stairs. The missionaries saw and just said like. Do not stop believe in Jesus and God. Then, you will be able to walk again. No help to carry him, no help to bring him to a hospital … This was one of the most disrespecting Christian shows I have ever seen in my life.

4. When being in church on Sundays, I do not take part in the rituals like eating bread and drinking wine because Quakers do not do all of these kinds of rituals. If other Christians see me doing this, they stare at me with a look telling me I am not a pure Christian or even gossip with each other that Farang is not a good Christian.

5. I cannot tell many Thai and foreign Christians that I am Quaker. Thais do not know what it means, and these foreign Christians somewho accept but do not think it is adequate to be a real good Protestant Christian. (IN my country there is not such a problem).

Please note, that their are a lot of differences between European and American Quakers as well.

I think, I will better stop now. Just want to share my experiences and apologize for any mistake in English, for my mother language is a European language, but not English.

for the previous posting. For more info email iyfcult@gmail.com

The writer of the comment above disagrees with “Those Nutty Missionaries” but he doesn’t address any of the points of the article. He does concede, however, that many missionaries do more harm than good.

Below is a response to a few of his comments.

“One thing that strikes me though is the very intolerant attitudes of most of the comments on this page towards Christians and Christianity.”

The “intolerance” toward missionaries is a backlash against their aggressive proselytising, not Christianity in general. If the militant and fundamentalist Christians kept their beliefs inside their own homes and churches, people like me wouldn’t care. However, traveling to foreign countries and aggressively trying propagate their fundamentalist beliefs, while attempting to drown out the local religion is not “freedom of religion”. Telling Buddhists that they worship a “false idol” and that they will not be “saved” unless they convert is insulting, intolerant and shouldn’t be tolerated.

“The fact is, there is freedom of religion in Thailand and that means freedom to proselytize, whatever form that may take.”

Therefore, the author believes that, it in an effort to get converts, it is acceptable to lie and bribe people outright, or offer aide only to people that go to church and convert.

Freedom of religion is the right to practise one’s religion (or not practise it) without being insulted or having someone try to convert you. The missionaries that are so concerned about freedom of religion only care about the freedom to push their own religion. If the shoe was on the other foot, and thousands of well-funded foreigners traveled to America and Korea trying to convert Christian communities to a radical foreign religion, they would, without doubt cry foul and attempt to stop it.

Why should the Thai government, or any government, issue special visa’s to people whose goal is to change the culture and create divisions within society by converting people? Most converts try to convert others, often creating division within their families. Many converts won’t even associate with non-Christians. This is not good for Thailand.

“Thanks to Christians that leprosy has been treated and eradicated in this country”

The author makes a jab at Buddhism and the issue of Kamma, stating that, according to him, Buddhists mistreated lepers. Many minority groups have been abused by Christians with justification from their bible, i.e., witches, non-believers, heathens, other religious believers, etc. Christians should look at their own long history of abuse of minority groups before passing any judgment.

Even today, fundamentalist Christians consider homosexuals as socially deviant, and treat them poorly, and seek to deny them the right to marry or have equal rights to heterosexuals; and they use their religion to support this discrimination.

He claims the Christians eradicated leprosy in this country. According to Christian belief, god created everyone, including lepers, just as he created deformed babies, retarded people, etc. So, if we follow the author’s rationale, we can say that the Christians in Thailand eradicated the disease (leprosy) that their god created and inflicted on thousands of suffering people.

Finally, though the author accuses the people who have made posts against missionaries as being intolerant, he makes the following extreme generalisation about foreigners living in Thailand:

“Their overall positive contribution (missionaries) far, far outweighs the combined contribution of the drunks and other yobos who come to this country in droves.”

He is stereotyping most foreigners in Thailand based on a tiny sliver of the foreign population. Yes there are some bad-behaved foreigners, who come to Thailand for these nightlife districts, but most of them are tourists and if you don’t go to these areas, one wouldn’t have to deal with them. Most of the tens of thousands of foreigners living and working in Thailand pay taxes and contribute a lot, without trying to convert people or change Thai culture.

As with most missionaries and missionary sympathisers, he failed to even discuss the militant idea, a violent tenet that missionaries teach, that only Christians will go to heaven, and therefore, non-Christians will go to hell. He also fails to comment on the contradiction, that if the missionaries respected Thai people, their culture and their religion, then they wouldn’t travel here to try to change the culture and religion. There is no way getting around that intolerance, which is inherently linked to missionary’s goals and actions.

Dear Nick,

Your replies simply come down to this: You don’t like my article and the posts that follow it because you like missionaries (perhaps you are one yourself, or you have the same fundamentalist, religious beliefs). Therefore, you’ve taken the role of defender/sympathiser of the missionaries. You think they do a lot more good than harm despite (or because of?) trying to convert people.

I think they are religious hustlers and zealots, most with extreme views about the nature of the world, who take the Bible as inerrant word for word truth.

Nick Wrote:
“…They’re (the missionaries) definitely not going to pack up and go home because Jon (who?) happens to take a dim view of their activities…”

No Nick (who?), I’m not so naive to think that religious zealots will stop their activities because people like me complain. Nothing short of a lobotomy would change their fundamentalist views, as they even ignore the laws of countries like China, Laos Israel, and several Muslim countries that forbid missionaries, and still sneak in by misrepresenting themselves, and then try to spread their religion.

But people like me can resist them. I’ve talked several potential converts to their senses before they had a chance to succumb to brainwashing. I’ve also complained to the Dean of my university, who then directed security to kick out and block entry to groups of loitering missionaries on my campus. I’ve posted letters against them, and perhaps you can say, I’ve made a few converts to the world of reason. So yes, there are things that people like me can do to resist religious fanatics. At least 90% of the replies I get are people telling me about their own bad experiences with missionaries and other pushy Christians. Of course I’ve also gotten emails from religious nuts threatening me and telling me I’m going to hell. Most of your replies are sensible at least.

It’s quite interesting that missionaries and their sympathisers expect everyone to accept and appreciate them. We should allow them access to everywhere they want to go, and give them special visa’s to do it, so they can preach their “gospel”, which states that all non-believers will go to hell, (and that includes the most-revered people in Thailand…I’m surprised that there isn’t a backlash against the missionaries for that).

Of course, there are all shades of missionary behaviour; some shout in the streets, preaching about the apocalypse, some lie about who they are and what their intentions are, some offer flat out cash and other material bribes for converts (as is practised in India), and some do good deeds without trying to convert anyone (these are really just do-gooders that happen to be Christian, not missionaries). Based on my own experience with missionaries and the converts I have seen and spoken too, there is a lot of Christian extremism that is being preached. Only the most conservative (politically, socially, and religiously) fundamentalist Christians become missionaries. Most religious moderates and liberals aren’t missionaries because they don’t believe that hell awaits all of the heathens and Buddhists of the world.

Nick Wrote:
“The last time I checked there were thousands of Buddhists, Hare Krishnas, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Muslims and others all over the world, pushing their particular message.”

Please, Nick, let’s be real. You know it, and everybody knows that it is the American, evangelical, Christian movement that sends out nearly all of the tens of thousands of Christian missionaries around the world every year. Nearly every country in the world is infiltrated by American evangelicals or people affiliated with them, and funded by donations to churches and Christian charities.

Buddhists don’t travel around the world with tens of millions of dollars of funding to try to convert Christians, and you know it Nick. In fact, Buddhist monks are forbidden to try to convert anyone. I’ve seen Thai monks in temples in Europe and America, but they serve the Buddhists or anyone who comes to the temple. There are not thousands of Asian Buddhists canvassing American and European towns, knocking on doors, and loitering on campuses trying to spread the word of Buddha and inviting people to leave Christianity and convert to Buddhism. If they were to do this in conservative Christian towns in America, there would be a backlash and they’d probably be harassed or run out of town. Yes, I’ve seen Hare Krishnas, who sing and hand out fliers, but they are just a drop in the bucket compared to Christian missionaries.

Most of the missionaries I’m referring to aren’t Mormon. Though you may not consider them Christians, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christian sects. Evangelicals don’t decide for the world who the real Christians are. Jehovah’s Witnesses think they are the only real Christians. Most evangelicals think that Catholics, all 1 billion of them, aren’t real Christians either.

Nick Wrote:
“So following your reasoning then, after God messed up everything, he felt so bad and told his followers to lend a hand and fix his mistakes. Good thing he did that – it really has helped a lot of people”

Imagine, a god who has the power to create everything in 6 days, and a god who has the power to do everything, does nothing to fix it, instead relying on his faulty, sin-filled creations, most of which believe in a different god or gods, to fix “his” mess. Fortunately, most of the world, and most mainstream Christians too, aren’t fundamentalists and don’t buy this.

Nick Wrote:
“If anything, they are more tolerant than most people. They come into this culture and embrace it, become part of it, gain the respect of the locals, integrate into local communities,..”

How you can claim that missionaries are tolerant about Buddhism and respect it when they try to convert Buddhists? Thai culture and Buddhism are intertwined. You cannot convert people without altering Thai culture. Go to any rural town and you will see how much activity and life centers around the temple.

Traveling around the world to try to change people’s religion is simply preposterous, and to claim that missionaries are tolerant about Buddhism and respect it while trying to convert Buddhists makes absolutely no sense. They are religious zealots pure and simple. Yes, some do provide useful aid to small pockets of people, but as always religious pressures comes with it; a free meal can’t be dispensed without a side-order of Jesus. Why not help people without wasting all of those resources planting churches and printing bibles and other Christian propaganda, or wasting time to try to convert people?

All missionaries aren’t providing aid. Quite a few of them are just traveling religious hustlers giving a free English lesson to get people into their church for the religious sales pitch. A lot of non-religious people help others also, including foreigners living in thailand. We just don’t talk about religion.

Nick Wrote:
“In fact, all the world religions, as far as I am aware, have some form of punishment or retribution, both , in the present life and in the after life, for bad deeds done. “

True, but in Buddhist belief you get bad kamma for bad deeds, and everyone has a way out of bad kamma, or hell. It can be reversed by doing good deeds. You don’t get bad kamma for merely being a Christian or a Muslim or an Atheist, but according to an evangelical Christian, you will go to hell, with NO WAY OF EVER ESCAPING, just for NOT being a Christian (accepting Jesus as your personal saviour). Therefore, if you’re a fundamentalist, according to Christian theology, Gandhi, Mohammed, Buddha, Rama IV, Rama V, etc. are all in hell because they weren’t Christian. By definition, evangelical Christians can’t respect other religions because non-Christians will go to hell, no matter what they do in their life, unless they convert.

Nick Wrote:
“Actually, Leprosy really is only the topmost tip of a really big iceberg. HIV/AIDS, TB, malaria, free legal assistance for those who are victims of the sex trade and human trafficking, houses for the poor, sanitation for slum dwellers, tsunami relief etc – mainly Christian organizations.”

Your feeding into the myth that’s only the Christians, or mainly the Christians help people. The majority of worldwide aid comes from non-Christian groups, though it’s the Christian groups that like to make a big display that they are Christian groups. There are many orphanages, hospices, abused-woman shelters, etc. that are NOT run by Christian groups, and therefore don’t push any religion. A person with HIV needs medication, not Jesus. A battered woman or an orphan needs protection and support, not a Bible and a fairy tale.

Nick Wrote:
Jon, I’m getting bored with this thread!

For someone who is bored of the thread, you are putting quite a bit of effort in responding with several long posts. You talk about my “rage” but you are the one with the increasingly bitter and snide tone. If you’re getting tired, just send me an email instead.

As I’ve always said, my posts are not directed at mainstream Christians; they are directed at missionaries and other religious extremists. As I’ve also said, I don’t really care what militant Christians believe as long they don’t push it on others .

You still haven’t given me an adequate reason why people supposedly giving aid should try to convert people. There is no reason beyond religious zealotry. And you still won’t own up to who you are; an evangelical, perhaps born-again, Christian who either is a missionary, used to be a missionary, or supports their activities in trying to support Buddhists and other heathens because they are all “un-saved”.

I can write thousands of words poking holes in foolish tenets of all religions. I’ve singled out Christianity here because most of the religious zealots, fanatics and nuts that I’ve come across are Christians. In other parts of the world, there are the violent Muslim and Jewish zealots, but frankly, I’ve never come across any Muslim missionaries in this part of the world. Why don’t the missionaries try to convert the Thai Muslims in southern Thailand. They don’t have the guts to try because they know they’d be run out.
How many Buddhist zealots have you come across Nick? Any Buddhist missionaries canvass your community looking for converts? Of course not.

Nick Wrote: With all due respect Jon, I don’t think you know a whole whack about Christianity or Buddhism.

First off, your American slang (whack) is quite juvenile.
No, I haven’t taken a lot of time to study Christianity because I don’t study or look for truth in fairy tales passed off as the word of god. I don’t need to study all of the details about the Harry Potter books (which evangelicals hate) to know it’s fiction and at best, an entertaining yarn. I know the basic tenets of Christianty including the good, which can be found in most religions and ethical systems. I also know enough of some of the violent and ludicrous passages in the old and new testaments. I know that fundamentalists believe and teach that the earth is 6,000 years old, and dinosaurs and humans lived together, and got on Noah’s ark together too, to be saved from god’s rage. What else…oh yes, stoning of adulterers and non-believers, the apocolypse, the rapture…

It’s quite hypocritical that you criticise me for speaking negatively about missionaries, while you misrepresent Buddhist teachings and precepts. You’ve made no mention of the serenity Buddhism offers millions of people, without the dogma. Instead, you focus only on bad Kamma (and your knowledge about that is limited as well). You say nothing about the Dhamma and the Buddha’s teachings, which would hold up to any morality presented in the bible. It appears that all you know about Buddhism has been taught to you to by evangelicals who use those same talking points to try to convert people. Missionaries dwell on bad Kamma as a lead in to their pitch about Jesus as the way out of bad Kamma. I’ve heard it spoken exactly this way, as they were probably taught to do. I’ve also seen the missionary books of talking points about what to say to adherents of other religions. What they really need is to be taught how to be better Buddhists, as is done in the ideals of HM the King’s Suffiency Economy.

Nick Wrote: You claim that I don’t like your article and the posts that follow it. That’s not true – quite frankly, your article, and especially the posts that follow it, is baseless drivel that is incapable of invoking feelings of either like or dislike….I merely tried to bring some balance to your very slanted views”

You spend a lot of time responding to baseless drivel Nick. A balanced view you say. Go peruse the thousands of websites devoted to spreading Christianity and “missionising” the world. Let me know if you see any balance there. You will read a lot of talk about heathen religions and false idols and people living in “the dark”. I’m sure you won’t write posts complain to those writers.

Nick wrote: I think you don’t like that I don’t agree with you. Fact is, when you choose to write on a subject and post it on the web, people like me have a right to disagree with you and challenge your assumptions – and I will happily continue to do so.

On the contrary, you are the one that can’t deal with an alternate points of view which challenges the tenets of your cherished evangelical beliefs. You found an article I wrote three years ago and have written three lengthy posts disparaging it. It really irks you that someone has opposing views and the guts to post them on a forum with decent readership. It also irks you that most of the replies are from people who agree with the points of my article.

Nick Wrote: Fact is, when you choose to write on a subject and post it on the web, people like me have a right to disagree with you and challenge your assumptions – and I will happily continue to do so.

Don’t turn this around. You are the one who has gone out the way to find, read, and complaining about the article and the posts, not me. Why would a good evangelical, born-again type like yourself be reading my article?

I agree, this thread has become tiresome. Instead of bickering here, just send me an email instead, as there is nothing new to this conversation worth posting.

Well Christine,

I’m so happy for you that you enjoyed your silly Jesus camp.

Most of the people who go to the IYF Jesus camp in Thailand, however, unlike you, who wanted to go to a Christian camp, have no idea that it is a Jesus camp. They don’t advertise it as such at my university in Thailand. Maybe in Korea, or wherever you went, they all know it is a Christian camp, but not here.

Since you didn’t go to the same camp as my students, YOU are the one that should get your facts straight. Most of the people who go to this camp here are Buddhists and have no interest in Christianity whatsoever, and they have no idea that they will be preached to and told to sing Christian songs. On the fliers, they do advertise Korean pop bands.

Huh? What are you talking about? Did you miss the whole point of the article?

The person who wrote those outrageous quotes is a born-again Chrsitian, not a Buddhist. Everything he says about Buddhism is outrageous and false. His quotes show his ignorance, and show what can happen to people who are brainwashed by Christians. Buddhism doesn’t teach people “Black Magick” or “witchcraft”…

Maybe you didn’t understand. Read again and write back…

J

Sheesh! This stupid post just won’t lie down and die will it? I have tried my best to ignore it but Jon, I’m afraid your moronic and mindless prattle just brings out the worst in me. If you would take the effort to pull your head out of your arse for just a moment and actually just take a look around you and maybe speak to a few Thai Buddhists, you will see that there is actually a lot of “witchcraft” in the sense of placing curses on people and a lot of “Black Magick”(sic) in the sense that Thai Buddhists are incredibly superstitious and perform what could be called magic in order to have good luck and stay on the right side of the spirits (all stuff that Siddharta Gautama never taught). They make extensive use of spirit mediums and diviners and in certain parts of the country perform elaborate rituals in order to become possessed by the spirits. Young men are tattooed in the belief that powerful spirits will inhabit those tattoos and give them supernatural powers. They wear amulets to protect them from car accidents and bullets and other misfortunes. They tie “holy string” around their cars’ steering columns to protect themselves from accidents, etc. etc. Thai Buddhism is actually Folk Buddhism, a mish mash of Hinduism, Buddhism and Animism. It is a far cry from the Buddhism taught by the Buddha himself. The person who is making the quotes (the one whom you disparage in your comment of 7 Sept @ 11:05) is clearly a Thai former Buddhist – I should think he knows a lot more than you do about what Buddhists believe and practice – he without a shadow of a doubt knows more about what he, his family and friends, practiced as Buddhists, than you possibly could. That you can say that this former Buddhist has been “brainwashed by Christians” about what he used to believe and practice as a Buddhist (and what his former girlfriends did) just boggles the mind and shows that you harbor some serious conspiracy theories AND give Christians way too much credit.

I have met some seriously crazy scary fundamentalist Christians with some way out ideas, but dude, you make them all seem tame. You are one messed up guy and I just wonder what happened in your life that has made you so rabidly anti-Christian. The problem is that your anti-Christian obsession has seemingly rendered you incapable of rational thought. The irony is that you are identical to the stark raving fundamentalists that you’re out to discredit – you’re standing at the opposite end of the spectrum to them, but you’re just as mad and just as dangerous.

Jon,
I find it interesting that you keep harping on about the fact that you posted this 2 years ago. I didn’t know there was a statute of limitations on web blog posts. And even if there was, I don’t care. I can return to this post in 50 years time and comment on it if I want to. If the post no longer accurately reflects your views and opinions, you should state that, otherwise stop whining about how long ago you posted it.

For your information, I haven’t responded to your “views” since early July. Since then you have brainlessly responded twice to other people, and as I mentioned, your brainless comments bring out the worst in me. So though I managed to hold myself back, your last response was so moronic that I felt compelled to put in my bit.

Which brings me to your latest response to me. It seems that you are the thin-skinned one who needs to have the last word. (Go ahead, make my day and prove me wrong by not responding to this post).

The reason I say you are dangerous is because you preach religious intolerance in a nation where there is freedom of religion, including the freedom to disseminate religious material and to proselytize using all legal means. I agree with you, as I did in my first response or two, that some people do use dubious means to proselytize (if you go back and read my first and second responses, you will see that is you who missed the point). The fact is you are using your right of free speech to spread hate speech aimed at Christians. The words and language you have used about missionaries in Thailand is aimed at stirring up anger and hatred towards them. You don’t like what they do, so you have appointed yourself as the guardian of Buddhists in Thailand, protecting your friends and students from these horrid Christians who want to “brainwash” them and who “should be lobotomized”. I really don’t know why you think that the Buddhists are so insecure in their religion that they need your protection. Ajarn Jon, the clever farang, guardian and protector of weak and gullible Thais – pathetic!

You are an intolerant bigot (and to argue in turn, as you already have somewhere, that missionaries are intolerant of Buddhism because of the very fact that they are missionaries, is ludicrous. To have a different view, opinion, or belief system to someone else and to try to make that person come round to your view, opinion or belief system, does not automatically make you intolerant of that person’s view, opinion or belief system). Your intolerance makes you generalize and you are happy to condemn all missionaries based on the actions of the few that you have seen in Bangkok doing things that bug you. The fact is, there are thousands of missionaries in Thailand who don’t do the things you are pissing and whining about, but your hate speech includes them all.

Another thing Jon, it is patently clear that you don’t have sufficient knowledge of Christianity or Thai Buddhism to intelligently talk about either them. All your statements thus far about both these religions, especially Christianity, have been based on your limited perceptions, are wide sweeping generalizations and are unfair and inaccurate stereotypes or caricatures.

Why don’t you get a life, grow up and find some other, more worthy, crusade to pursue. Let the missionaries do their thing. Those Thai who do fall for the foul tricks of those missionaries who arrange camps and are gullible and weak enough to give up their Buddhism for Christianity, are not in for a worse life if they become Christians. By fighting the missionaries you are not making any Thai person’s life any better. You’re tilting at windmills. Why don’t you rather do something that will make a real difference and leave a lasting legacy, like railing against the massive human trafficking that goes on, the burgeoning sex industry, the rampant sexual abuse of children in Thailand, the corruption, the massive divide between the rich and the poor, the class system, the appalling human rights record, treatment of prisoners, treatment of refugees – there are so many more worthy causes out there. Pick one and knock yourself out.

Wow! This is the most heated debate that’s going on in the website. Jon, Nick, you guys remind me of back in my university days where I had several long discussions with my Christian friends about our religions. I couldn’t help breaking the thread between you two, since it’s too brain-stimulating. So, this is an opinion from a Thai who went through that converting process before. I’ll try to keep it as short as possible since I have no intention on offending anyone.

First of all, I once converted, but then I converted myself back. I became friend with a group of Christians at my university and I went with them to many of their activities. After a period of time, I was convinced that I might have met God after all, but the more I tried to reach God the I was suggested the futher away it seemed. Finally, after talking to both believers and non-believers, I converted to a ‘me-whatever-religion’. I experienced all 1-5 points mentioned in the article. However, I didn’t went camping with the Koreans because by the time they began to reach out for the majority I knew better not to be involved.

The whole ‘missionary business’ Jon mentioned here is right on the spot and it’s not very pretty. I really like to talk to people and exchanging views. However, very often, I couldn’t do that with my Christian friends without feeling being pushed to convert when God came into picture. I was approached by a missionary who wouldn’t leave me alone until I had to lie that I was actually studying the bible with some church and considering converting. There were one time that 2 churches were after me at the same time. I had to lie my way out also.

There’s nothing wrong with spreading the words. It’s like you are the owner of a shampoo band. You find ways to advertise to make people want to buy. But when it comes to spread the words of God, the method they are using is not good at all. I’m not saying that all missionaries in Thaialnd are using it, but many? Heck, yes!

Jon,
Thank you for your point of view. Maybe shampoo is a bad comparison. My point is that I believe that telling people or spreading the knowledge about your religion is okay as long as you don’t try to force it into people, make them uncomfortable or convert them. If they should change, the decision must be 100% theirs. For example, I’m willing to talk about Buddhism to anyone wanting to listen, but I won’t keep talking if they’re not interested.

Maybe we see different views on the issue, but in Buddhism, monks do travel to spread the Buddha’s teaching too. That’s why we have temples in places like US and Europe. So, I just think if missionaries (Christian monks) wants to tell other people about their God, they can do it, but of course, not in a way we know many of them are doing right now. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.

Jon,

Thank you for your opinion. You certainly study Buddhism really well. No, monks don’t try to convert people. It’s, of course, forbidden. However, Buddhism has its way to spread though or else how can we explain how the Buddha got many people who had no clue about his teaching before to follow him in the first place. I learned it from a social science textbook when I was in school that monks did travel to tell peole about Buddhism. It wasn’t like they go out in streets or anything. Oh well, it was just my vague memory from back in the old days anyway. Maybe you can explain the issue to me.

Thanks.

Jon,

Well, you certainly know Buddhism enough to construct good arguments and explain your points. So, just out of my curiosity: if Christianity spreads the same way as Buddism, it should be ok, right? I don’t mean to make a point for Christianity or aggressive proselytising here. I’m just trying to see things from both sides.

Thanks

Dear Nick,

Thank you for offering your opinion. I don’t see why we can’t try to be nice and polite when discussing such a sensitive topic like religion. I’m sorry that you feel like I was patronizing Jon because if you respond my comment I will use the same style with you too. I’m not here to argue. I’m here because I’m interested to understand. However, it seems like you prefer putting people down before giving your superior point of view.

My knowledge of Christianity and Buddhism is also limited and based on my personal experiences. I only spent two years going in and out of church and reading the bible. So, comparing to you whom I would assume to be a christian all your life, I could be called ignorant. I still have the bible in my bookshelf which I read it from time to time. Although I decided not to be a christian, I’d still like to discuss the topic to get a better understanding without offending anyone or feeling forced to accept. And I still keep good relationship with my Christian friends from my university. But maybe you’re right. If I have a problem with my Christian friends and missionaries aggressively trying to bring me over to their side, I may as well have problem with Christianity.

Hi Dariya

I apologise. I did not mean to offend you, but reading my comment again I can see that it was offensive to you. Jon is right, my comment was more aimed at him than at you. I just feel that you’re giving him way too much credit for his knowledge of Buddhism.

I also agree with you that we should be able to dialogue about topics that we have totally differing views about and that has been part of my frustration with Jon – he has not been open to any of the views I have expressed, when I was merely trying to give a differing view to his. I have inadvertently become guilty of the very thing that I accuse him of. Please do lets keep talking and I will try to be more jay yen.

Nick

During an IYF workshop we were able to attend a Burmese church. Not an IYF church, just a Burmese church. It was absolutely amazing. It seemed as if everyone at the church (from grandmas to children) all knew how to play an instrument. There was band that had two hot twins rocking to Myanmar Christian music. The stage had two giant speakers and the whole church shook. Yet everyone joined in, pounding their feet and clapping their hands while singing. Everyone was very welcoming and friendly. So everyone sang a song, and the IYF made me sing with the group (we sucked compared to the Burmese band). The Burmese pastor was really good and not boring at all. I am no where close to being Christrian, but this was actually very enjoyable. But when the IYF pastor turn came everyone kinda slowly melted in their seats (if you have been involved with the IYF you know what I mean). When I sang on stage with the choir I saw the IYF pastor in the back looking very sad/mean. Koreans in general have very serious faces, but this seemed different.
When we drove home the pastor in the car talked about how those people did not have salvation and were not worshipping correctly. If you ever been to an IYF church you know that when the pastor talks everyone stays still and keeps absolutely quiet (not even a fart). So being at a church that “made God fun” is not the IYF way.
And for Christine, you obviously have not been with the IYF for very long. Coming to one event of course they would treat you like a princess. But as soon as you participate consistently you will be expected to do a few “chores.” Like singing, dancing, giving testimonies (have to even if you do not have one), waking up at 6am every day, and the best part is usually bathing with multiple people (can’t wait till you experience that).
This is the only thread on the Internet that gives the whole story about the IYF.

Dear IYF Ex-Participant,

Thank you for your input.

What you described is typical behaviour of a cult. Christine claimed she when she was invited to the IYF camp, she knew that is was a Christian camp. Maybe people in Korea or America already know about the IYF and that it’s a Christian camp, so the IYF doesn’t need to disguise it, but they aren’t up front about it in Thailand. If I could post pictures on this page, I would post the IYF “Korean Camp” adverts with pictures of Korean boy bands and promises about learning Korean language and culture. They advertise that way, because they know that the latest fad with Thai students is Korean pop music and Korean fashion. They also know that the students would not be interested in going to a fundamentalist Christian camp of the type you described. So, the IYF organisers lie or deceive the students to get them to the camp, and once there, the attempts at brainwashing begin. Fortunately, I had a couple of students that wouldn’t put up with it, and were outspoken about it, which is what alerted to me this, and several other phony camps offered by missionaries.

Asking non-Christians to give a Christian “testimony” is ludicrous. In fact, most Christians (non-born-agains) would also find it ludicrous. The best thing to do is just warn others to avoid the IYF cult.

i’m been in the iyf program since 2003 don’t tell me that i haven’t been in the program long enough and trust me i’ve done a lot of cleaning and gave testimonies and don’t forget dancing. but they didn’t force me to do any of those. well i guess cleaning they told me to but this is all part of spiritual training you can’t just live the way you want. What is so bad about cleaning your own church? i think if you have a problem with that you have a problem in your heart. Also for the singing and dancing your praising god how is that a bad thing? just to tell you all our dances have a meaning and a story to them that relate to god. I think if you really had an opened heart then you wouldn’t be able to say all this stuff about the iyf

Dear Christine,

I didn’t say that the IYF in Thailand actually had Korean boy bands at their camp, but on their adverts they did have pictures of a popular Korean boy band along with a message about learning Korean culture and language.

Where did you join with them? In Korea or America? You know who they are already, and you know what to expect and, therefore, participate willingly. The Thai Buddhist and Muslim students, however, don’t know what they are getting into when they sign up for the camp, which is upcountry, making it difficult or impossible to leave in the middle of it.

For promotion, the IYF set up a stage in a crowded meeting place on campus, and had Korean singing and dancing with costumes to create interest in their camp. None of the adverts mentioned religion and none of the Koreans there (many of them were American-born Koreans) mentioned religion at all. Since I already knew who they were, I asked them why they didn’t advertise that it was a religious camp, but they avoided the subject. It was only one Thai person involved with them who told me in broken English that they want to “Bring Jesus to the Thai people”.

I did manage to speak to one of the Korean Americans who couldn’t pretend that she didn’t understand me and she said the usual missionary response;

“We don’t force anyone to convert”

No, as Dariya said, nobody is “forced” to convert. Of course they can’t force people to convert at knifepoint like in medieval times, but peer pressure is a strong influence. One thing these types of cults ought to know is that when somebody gives a testimony as the result of any pressure, it’s not real, it’s fake, it’s a lie. I know so many Thai people that have been given pressure by a friend or family member to convert. This pressure is real. I know a Thai man who converted because his gf converted; she wouldn’t stay with him if he didn’t convert. Now he is a closet Buddhist in a country with 94% Buddhists, due to peer pressure.

It is totally, 100% wrong for the IYF or any group to misrepresent themselves and lie in an effort to get more members. If you are a member of the IYF, you should relay that message, because it does happen. The students of mine who went told me they spent more time studying the Bible and being coerced to sing Christian songs then learning Korean language and culture, which was what the camp was supposed to be about. They were asked to give testimony, and they did it just to please them. They lied due to peer pressure. And they told me all about it the next week in class. Most of the students, who were Buddhist, took the microphone and said what they wanted them to say, but they didn’t believe it. They even joked about it later.

After the camp, someone from the IYF called them every week to ask them if they would go to church. Then, a Thai member called and put pressure on them to join the church. It’s like they can’t accept no for an answer. I’m fortunate to have students and friends who shared this with me, otherwise I’d probably never know about it.

As for singing Christian songs and cleaning the church, no there isn’t anything wrong with that if you are a Christian and a member of that church, and you choose to do it. But non-Christians should never be asked to sing Christian songs at a camp labelled as a Korean culture camp.

Another group of Americans were around last month offering an English camp, and last term, a different group of Koreans offered a “Leadership Camp”. Religion was part of the agenda of both camps, but it wasn’t on any of the adverts. I had to act like I was interested in volunteering before they told me that they had Bible teaching and that the camp had a “Christian message”. It is quite hypocritical that they claim their religion is “The Truth”, yet they aren’t up front and truthful about who they are and what they are doing.

Dear Christine,

Then we agree on one thing that no one should promote religious activities in a misleading way. I don’t really mind how you practice your religion because it’s your own basic right. If what you said is how the IYF folks do it in America, they certainly don’t do it here in Thailand. Otherwise, you won’t even see people like Jon and I (and others) discussing this topic.

Nick,

Finally a reply to your last posts.

Nick Wrote:
” As for “rude, snide and insulting comments”, you set the tone in your initial response to me of 24 June…”

Jon Wrote:
You are justifying all of your insults because I referred to you in the third person (only in the first reply). Insults are scattered throughout your posts. You referred to me as “mad”, “dangerous”, “intolerant bigot”, “messed-up guy”, and people who agree with me as my “little gang of sympathizers”, just to list a few. Then you insulted Daria, just because she and I were having a civil discussion in which she agreed with me about some points. You did apologise for that one at least. Don’t worry, I can handle the insults, as I’ve heard much worse, such as people telling me that I’m “going to hell” (though that is more funny then anything).

You also said, referring to me, “You took very personally the fact that anyone would dare put comments on your page which didn’t gel with your opinions.”

Sure I can handle you disagreeing. Of course I don’t expect born-again Christians, missionaries or their symathisers to agree with me. I’m just defending my positions. You are the one who’s becoming more edgy and angry in your posts.

You also wrote, “I do disagree with you that you “just disagree” with my views. Things you have said and intimated go way beyond healthy debate. Your views tend to reflect an anger and militancy which I don’t honestly expect you to acknowledge.”

You are mistaking opposition for “militancy”. I’ve made it clear that I oppose missionaries in a non-violent way. Perhaps you think that anyone who opposes missionaries is dangerous? I’ve also made it clear that the article isn’t directed at most Christians. This article is only directed at the tiny sliver of the Christian population (usually American, occasionally Korean) who make it their calling to travel to foreign countries, often with church-funding, to try to convert Buddhists, Hindu’s and other “heathens”. I oppose them whole-heartedly, but don’t advocate any sort of violence whatsoever. That isn’t anti-Christian. Accusing me of being “dangerous” and “spreading hate” is ridiculous.

You also wrote earlier, referring to me, “…He has seen a few Christian missionaries in Bangkok going OTT (over the top), so all Christian missionaries are bad and should either be kicked out of the country or be lobotomized.”

I never said or inferred that anyone should be lobotmised. That is a grotesque misreporting of what I actually said, which was,

“I’m not so naive to think that religious zealots will stop their activities because people like me complain. Nothing short of a lobotomy would change their fundamentalist views…”

Also, I never said missionaries are “bad”. They are just misguided and their pushy activities create division and more problems then they realise. If they want to help people, then they should do it without the conversion tactics, which are often linked into any sort of volunteer work they do.

You also wrote to Dariya,
“If you have a problem with Christian friends who have tried to bring you over to their side, your problem is not really with them, or with missionaries. Your problem is with Christianity. They are merely doing what they feel obliged to do in obedience to their God.”

That’s a very weak argument. You really believe that it’s a problem with non-Christians and secular people when they don’t like to be badgered and harassed? The problem with a pushy missionary or friend is in themselves, not the person who isn’t responsive to it and doesn’t want to change their religion. Just because a born-again Christian thinks they are being “obedient to their God” (what an unappealing thought; as if an omniscient, perfect god would actually need and require us to love and be obedient to “Him”) doesn’t mean they should harass others with their views. Let the born-agains be obedient in their own lives and leave the rest of us alone. This is where religion becomes a problem. When pushy, religious people of any religion cite their religion and their holy books as justification for harassing people, they are now injecting their religion in other people’s live’s who don’t believe in their religion or holy books.

Finally, you said,

“Things you have said and intimated go way beyond healthy debate…”

Why have you reignited this debate so many times if it’s unhealthy? There is nothing I said that is unhealthy unless you consider not being Christian, or opposing proselytising to be unhealthy (which many fundamentalist Christians certainly believe). I don’t approach Christians preaching the “Good News” of Atheism or Secularism or the “Gospel” of avoiding religion. I only react to the zealots that insist everybody else needs to hold the same narrow, fundamentalist religious views that they do. If they didn’t come into my space (many, many times before), I wouldn’t care at all about what they believe.

There isn’t really anywhere else this discussion can go. It’s like a broken record. Nobody’s mind will be changed here…

dear #49 IYF Ex Participant
Please stop lying
first of all you do not know me, and i am 200% sure of this
second you did not make 2 iyf clubs if you did please tell me where you started these two clubs.
i actually live in america and i am currently working in the IYF right now
IYF is actually a christain based organization but not christain
there have been times where many non christain people came and volunteered.
we do not discriminate against other religions (i know you weren’t saying we were)
o and another thing we do not offer free trips across the US.
In our volunteer program the participant pays for their own flight ticket or whatever to get to their destination.
But for the one year they are at the country of their choice they stay there for free in trade of volunteering.
IYF is an organization to bring up leaders of the future
It is true we rarely talk about the bible or god.
Later on some people want to teach about god or the bible.
But I don’t see people going up to the volunteers and peer pressuring them in any way. Free ride, trip don’t even start with me and you called me a ‘…..’ although you didn’t curse at me or call me a name but within the ‘…..’ you already had the heart to swear at me don’t even try to act like you’re a nice person because in the bible it already says that we are sinners.
why do you try to deny that?
Like i said there are some people here that try to preach the gospel but there are also many people who refuse to listen to it, or should i say don’t want to listen, or uninterested if they tell them i believe they stop bothering, should i say, them.
IYF is a very big organization and if you think we are brainwashing people i don’t see how all these people are getting tricked because there are many smart people that are involved with our organization.
For example the President Fernando Lugo of paraguay he also attended IYF and is also a member he supports us and sponsors us.
same with Professor Micheal Noble, Ronald T.Y. Moon the Chief Justice of the Hawaii State Supreme Court, Kalonzo Stephen Musyoka the Vice-President of Kenya, Benjamin Mkapa the former President of Tanzania, and also Hillary Cilton (she supported us at the 2006 IYF Worldcamp in Hawaii)
I also don’t see how you think that we were able to make over 500 branches world wide
well i just thought i’d point out to you how big iyf is and how much bigger it will be.
There are many college students in the world that lose hope in life and find them selves wondering thinking what am i going to do with my life.
will iyf also helps those students find a dream and fulfill that dream