Comments on: Assimilation. How Does That Work? http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/ Tales from the "Big Mango" Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:40:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Marc Holt http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2771 Marc Holt Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:10:24 +0000 http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2771 Thank you for clearing that up John and for the apology. As you have pointed out, there is no point in trying to assimilate...especially in Thailand. I observe the basic amenities like Waiing back, and being polite and keeping cool rather than jumping up and down to get what I want. I feel that living in Thailand has actually helped make me a better person. Like many, when I first arrived I was all starry-eyed and thought I wanted to become a Thai. But no sooner than I learned some of the language and customs I realized it just didn't fit. Ever since then I have remained 'me'. It's a comfortable fit. And that's why I have never had a close Thai male friend. Our outlook and cultures are too different for us to ever feel really comfortable with each other; Even with my longest Thai friend of almost 30 years Coming from Australia I have never felt that class mattered. I take people as I find them; rich, poor, or even royals. I am guessing you are British from your references to class? Thank you for clearing that up John and for the apology. As you have pointed out, there is no point in trying to assimilate…especially in Thailand. I observe the basic amenities like Waiing back, and being polite and keeping cool rather than jumping up and down to get what I want. I feel that living in Thailand has actually helped make me a better person.

Like many, when I first arrived I was all starry-eyed and thought I wanted to become a Thai. But no sooner than I learned some of the language and customs I realized it just didn’t fit. Ever since then I have remained ‘me’. It’s a comfortable fit. And that’s why I have never had a close Thai male friend. Our outlook and cultures are too different for us to ever feel really comfortable with each other; Even with my longest Thai friend of almost 30 years

Coming from Australia I have never felt that class mattered. I take people as I find them; rich, poor, or even royals. I am guessing you are British from your references to class?

]]> By: John Toland http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2770 John Toland Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:41:33 +0000 http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2770 Marc, I apologize if I sounded condescending, that was not my intention. The problem of assimilation is a very real one - at the end of the day it is difficult to assimilate into ANY society, even supposedly accepting and open ones like the West. You should read some of Joseph Conrads letters about settling in England - he was a perpetual outsider, till his death. Sadly, this seems to be human nature for the most part, and it seems strange and unrealistic to expect to simply uproot yourself, go to some far flung place with a distinctive culture, set of traditions, and most importantly (sadly so) ethnicity, and expect that assimilation is possible. I don't blame you for the dream, but we ex-pats must realize that WE are the exceptions in our disregard for primitive human emotions like ethnic and cultural solidarity and our willingness to simply see people as human beings. Also try reading Donald Richie, Japans most famous ex-pat. Confronted with the issue of rejection by his chosen country, he responded by embracing his status as outsider and ultimately reveling in it's freedom from the complex, stifling web of social obligation that enmeshes every Japanese. He chose to define his position in a positive light after grasping early on the sad reality of human nature; that for most people, cultural and ethnic identity DO matter. Richie speculated that the only way to be happy as a perpetual outsider is to once and for all give up the impossible dream of assimilation, and realize that it wasn't a dream worth having anyways! At the end of the day if we wanted "acceptance" we wouldn't have left our own societies, would we? Richie wrote very eloquently on this whole topic and developed it at some length. His perspective is original and sane and should be published in small handbook format and given free to every prospective ex-pat. But anywyas. The point I was trying to make above was this; since the advent of globalization, most societies, even poorer, more traditional ones, have a Westernized upper class that really is similar in tastes and at least partly in attitude, to the West. Some level of genuine acceptance is possible here, although even here total acceptance isn't really an option. Anywyas my sincere apologies for sounding like an arse and I hope some of what I said sounds a little better. Best regards and good luck. Marc, I apologize if I sounded condescending, that was not my intention. The problem of assimilation is a very real one - at the end of the day it is difficult to assimilate into ANY society, even supposedly accepting and open ones like the West. You should read some of Joseph Conrads letters about settling in England - he was a perpetual outsider, till his death. Sadly, this seems to be human nature for the most part, and it seems strange and unrealistic to expect to simply uproot yourself, go to some far flung place with a distinctive culture, set of traditions, and most importantly (sadly so) ethnicity, and expect that assimilation is possible. I don’t blame you for the dream, but we ex-pats must realize that WE are the exceptions in our disregard for primitive human emotions like ethnic and cultural solidarity and our willingness to simply see people as human beings.

Also try reading Donald Richie, Japans most famous ex-pat. Confronted with the issue of rejection by his chosen country, he responded by embracing his status as outsider and ultimately reveling in it’s freedom from the complex, stifling web of social obligation that enmeshes every Japanese. He chose to define his position in a positive light after grasping early on the sad reality of human nature; that for most people, cultural and ethnic identity DO matter. Richie speculated that the only way to be happy as a perpetual outsider is to once and for all give up the impossible dream of assimilation, and realize that it wasn’t a dream worth having anyways! At the end of the day if we wanted “acceptance” we wouldn’t have left our own societies, would we? Richie wrote very eloquently on this whole topic and developed it at some length. His perspective is original and sane and should be published in small handbook format and given free to every prospective ex-pat. But anywyas.

The point I was trying to make above was this; since the advent of globalization, most societies, even poorer, more traditional ones, have a Westernized upper class that really is similar in tastes and at least partly in attitude, to the West. Some level of genuine acceptance is possible here, although even here total acceptance isn’t really an option.

Anywyas my sincere apologies for sounding like an arse and I hope some of what I said sounds a little better. Best regards and good luck.

]]> By: Marc Holt http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2766 Marc Holt Wed, 06 Aug 2008 02:08:21 +0000 http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2766 John, what a condescending, ignorant attitude you display in your response. While I agree that quite a number of foreigners coming here do come from the working classes, I don't see that as a problem. I come from a comfortable middle class family, so your assessment is already wrong there. And even though I did write that I have no close Thai men friends, I actually have a few good friends, but I wouldn't call them 'close'. As for not fitting in, once again you are so wrong. I live in the Bangkok suburbs in a small moo baan. Everyone in our soi knows me and my family and we are liked and respected. They love my daughters. They give us kanom and small gifts, as does my wife to others. In other words, we are very comfortably integrated. But would I call any of them close friends? No. I am, and always will be, a farung. I will never be Thai. Yet my wife is very close friends with a few people in our soi. That is the way it is in Thailand. If you think you are different, I would beg to differ. I was first married to a Thai-Chinese woman for 10 years. Her family are very wealthy. They also accepted me, and included us in the family activities. I have never felt like I have been rejected by my Thai families. I have just never been able to develop a really close friendship with a Thai male. If you have I would also be very surprised. Everyone I have spoken to tells me they have the same experience as me. I am not interested in fitting into any 'class', as you imply. I have been invited to join the Hi-So set and I rejected the offer because I am too busy running my business to waste time on frivolous socializing. Consider this. I have lived here 30 years. Could I have done that if I were not flexible and able to adapt to a completely alien environment? I have built a very comfortable life for my family, and built 3 very successful businesses, one of which I recently sold for a nice profit. So please take your patronizing attitude...you know where to put it. John, what a condescending, ignorant attitude you display in your response. While I agree that quite a number of foreigners coming here do come from the working classes, I don’t see that as a problem. I come from a comfortable middle class family, so your assessment is already wrong there. And even though I did write that I have no close Thai men friends, I actually have a few good friends, but I wouldn’t call them ‘close’. As for not fitting in, once again you are so wrong. I live in the Bangkok suburbs in a small moo baan. Everyone in our soi knows me and my family and we are liked and respected. They love my daughters. They give us kanom and small gifts, as does my wife to others. In other words, we are very comfortably integrated. But would I call any of them close friends? No. I am, and always will be, a farung. I will never be Thai. Yet my wife is very close friends with a few people in our soi. That is the way it is in Thailand. If you think you are different, I would beg to differ.

I was first married to a Thai-Chinese woman for 10 years. Her family are very wealthy. They also accepted me, and included us in the family activities. I have never felt like I have been rejected by my Thai families. I have just never been able to develop a really close friendship with a Thai male. If you have I would also be very surprised. Everyone I have spoken to tells me they have the same experience as me.

I am not interested in fitting into any ‘class’, as you imply. I have been invited to join the Hi-So set and I rejected the offer because I am too busy running my business to waste time on frivolous socializing. Consider this. I have lived here 30 years. Could I have done that if I were not flexible and able to adapt to a completely alien environment? I have built a very comfortable life for my family, and built 3 very successful businesses, one of which I recently sold for a nice profit. So please take your patronizing attitude…you know where to put it.

]]> By: John Toland http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2760 John Toland Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:29:39 +0000 http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2760 It sounds like you yourself come from a more modest/lower middle class background and naturally feel more comfortable in that environment, which is perfectly normal. Most farang men in Thailand seem to come from the lower classes, so that isn't unusual. The problem seems to me to be twofold. Theoretically, you would fit in best amongst the lower classes in Thailand, which is where most farang seem to naturally gravitate here. The problem is that in a less developed country like Thailand, the lower classes are the least Westernized and most tradition bound, i.e least likely to fully accept a foreigner or feel comfortable around him (although I note you say your Issarn wife's family DID accept you). The upper Thai classes are the more Westernised, English speaking, and used to foreigners, and probably share many Western tastes and attitudes, but are probably a class and type of person you whose company you would neither enjoy nor be accepted by, just as you probably wouldn't enjoy their counterparts in the West. That is the sad and tragic catch-22 of lower middle class farang in Thailand (the vast majority) - they are least likely to be accepted by their class counterparts in Thailand, yet cannot fit in to any of the other classes. It sounds like you yourself come from a more modest/lower middle class background and naturally feel more comfortable in that environment, which is perfectly normal. Most farang men in Thailand seem to come from the lower classes, so that isn’t unusual. The problem seems to me to be twofold. Theoretically, you would fit in best amongst the lower classes in Thailand, which is where most farang seem to naturally gravitate here. The problem is that in a less developed country like Thailand, the lower classes are the least Westernized and most tradition bound, i.e least likely to fully accept a foreigner or feel comfortable around him (although I note you say your Issarn wife’s family DID accept you). The upper Thai classes are the more Westernised, English speaking, and used to foreigners, and probably share many Western tastes and attitudes, but are probably a class and type of person you whose company you would neither enjoy nor be accepted by, just as you probably wouldn’t enjoy their counterparts in the West. That is the sad and tragic catch-22 of lower middle class farang in Thailand (the vast majority) - they are least likely to be accepted by their class counterparts in Thailand, yet cannot fit in to any of the other classes.

]]> By: David http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2251 David Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:55:44 +0000 http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2251 Astonishing, you jangled so many bells my ears are still ringing; my own exeriences mirror yours to an uncanny degree though you have been here longer than me so I am still in the discomforted stage. Thanks for the extremely valuable post. D Astonishing, you jangled so many bells my ears are still ringing; my own exeriences mirror yours to an uncanny degree though you have been here longer than me so I am still in the discomforted stage.

Thanks for the extremely valuable post.

D

]]> By: Jonathan http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2073 Jonathan Sun, 26 Aug 2007 02:45:54 +0000 http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2007/08/26/assimilation-how-does-that-work/#comment-2073 I have to agree with you Marc. After being here for more than a year now, I too cannot call any Thai guys my friends. Some Thai girls I can call true friends. I have to agree with you Marc. After being here for more than a year now, I too cannot call any Thai guys my friends. Some Thai girls I can call true friends.

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