I have a good mate who is married to a non-Thai woman. Although separated by several continents she has many of the same values as a Thai woman. They were having dinner one night with a farang couple. My mate’s wife offhandedly mentioned that sometimes when her husband gets home from work she’ll pour a basin of water and wash his feet.
The farang woman was aghast. She, in her self-righteous zeal, berated the wife for being subservient. She told her she should more pride in herself and not allow herself to be treated like a slave.
The wife, biting her tongue as best she could, told the farang woman that she doesn’t do it because he expects her to. For her it is a way of showing appreciation. Her husband provides for her very well and they own several beautiful homes. She wants for nothing. She went on to tell the farang that her husband is a loving and caring man who attends to her emotionally as well as financially and that she loves him very much. She asked why it should seem so strange to do something for her husband that he finds relaxing and enjoying.
Like I said, she was biting her tongue as best she could but her feelings were eventually betrayed in her last sentence on the topic. "Perhaps if you Western women showed your husbands some respect and appreciation for being a good husband the divorce rate in your country wouldn’t be over 50%."
This interaction is a perfect illustration of why so many farang men fall in love with Thai women. It also serves to illustrate why so many farang women simply cannot grasp why farang men seem to prefer Thai women. The farang women think they know but they are as wrong as first timer to Thailand who can’t see past the Thai smile.
Farang women, generally, think that farang men are attracted to Thai women is because they are submissive. They think the men are attracted because they can get a girlfriend half their age. They think that the men are attracted to the tight little Asian bodies.
The farang woman is correct but only to a certain degree. Yes, men are attracted to those things but there’s more to it than just that. Farang men also want to feel appreciated and respected. Yet, as the story told above demonstrates your average farang woman would never lower themselves. Farang women cherish their equality too much to do something that seems to them to be so one-sided.
However there’s an inequality in most farang / farang relationships. By that I mean that when you weigh all of the tangible and intangible qualities each party brings to the relationship the man, generally, is bringing more to the table than the woman. For instance, in few farang / farang marriages does the husband earn less than the wife. Likewise, you’re far more likely to find an attractive man married to an average looking woman than to find an attractive woman married to an average looking man. There are no absolutes here but just going by the numbers this is more true than not.
So you have these inequalities in most relationships. I know that’s a hard pill for some people to swallow but one only need to look at the number of men who graduate with degrees in economics, mathematics, computer science, medicine, and the other hard sciences vs. the number of women. Men, just going by the numbers, are more likely to be the higher earner. So right from the starting blocks you have an income discrepancy between the two. In order for the relationship to equalize she needs to bring something of the same value to the relationship.
Unfortunately, Western women cherish the concept of equality too much. Tell a secretary making £30,000 a year that she needs to bring something extra to the table in order to marry a software engineer making £60,000 and, rightly or wrongly, she’ll accuse you of being a chauvinist. So men just tend to accept that as part of life. Tradition says that their job is to be the primary earner so they accept it unquestioningly.
But there’s a catch. Even though, traditionally, that means that the woman should shoulder more of the household chores and generally try to provide a good home life for her husband who has been fulfilling his traditional role, many farang women feel that that role is outdated and beneath them. Whether that is true or not is not for me to answer but in one way or the other the woman has to bring things back to balance or the relationship simply isn’t going to work. Perhaps she’s much more attractive than her husband. That might even things out. Maybe she’s a wildcat in the sack. That might balance things out. Maybe she knows just when and just how to stroke her husband’s ego. Maybe that’s what evens things out. I don’t know what it is as it will be different for different couples but without the balance the relationship is doomed.
I believe this is why you often see so much hostility directed at farang women by farang men who have been fortunate enough to have a relationship with a Thai woman. Even if they don’t fully realize it consciously, it dawns on them that they’ve been getting the short end of the stick in most relationships. And like finding out your girlfriend has been sleeping around on you behind your back the farang man feels humiliated for being taken for such a fool. His rage is often so out of proportion with the actual damage done that he dismisses all farang women as . . . . well, I could list several derogatory terms here but I’ll allow the reader to fill in his/her own.
Personally, I don’t hate farang women. I don’t date them very often nowadays but I don’t hate them. I do prefer to date Thai women. Not for the reasons that most farang women might think but because Thai women tend to try to balance out the relationship. Obviously you cannot talk about an entire sex and not have exceptions. There are Thai women who’s mind set is more like the farang women I’ve described and there are farang women who have an outlook more like the Thai women I describe. That’s why I try to steer clear of making sweeping statements and say things like "tend to" or "normally."
It’s funny because most farang men have brainwashed themselves into believing many of the same things as farang women. I guess it’s natural since we come from the same culture. I remember the first time it really struck me. She was Thai with a good job, had a post-graduate degree, and was certainly not the poor farmer’s daughter stereotype. We were having dinner and when the food arrived she served me and then herself. When my water glass was half empty (or half full depending on how you look at it) she would fill it.
I was a little uncomfortable with that so I indicated she didn’t need to serve me. She insisted gently saying "You relax. I take care of you." As I thought about it, it made sense. If she likes you then demonstrating that she can be a good girlfriend or wife is very important to her. It would be the same as a guy holding a door open or pulling the seat out for his date. This is her way of saying that she likes me and that this is one of the qualities she intends to bring to the relationship.
Perhaps farang women will think she was being subservient but I thought of it as part of the dance we call dating. I show my ability to provide by taking her to a nice place to eat and she reciprocates by demonstrating that she can be a caring girlfriend. If anything, instead of viewing it as an act of weakness, as being subservient would imply, I viewed it as a sign that she was not the type of woman who would only take from the relationship without giving back. Obviously, a respectable quality.
Now if one contrasts that with a normal farang / farang date you start to recognize how the whole relationship imbalance manifests itself. It’s very difficult for a woman to screw up on a date unless she doesn’t show up, passes out drunk, or belches at the table. It’s hard for her to screw up the date because she is not the one auditioning. The man is primarily the one who is auditioning. So on a normal farang / farang date the man is expected to demonstrate all of the qualities that he can bring into the relationship and the woman will either approve (agree to a second date) or disapprove (decline a second date) without ever revealing her hand.
On a farang / Thai date both the man and woman are auditioning equally. This is true equality and I find it refreshingly honest which is why I prefer to date Thai women. When I date a Thai woman I feel as if I actually have some control over the situation. It is as much up to her to impress me as it is for me to impress her. I don’t want to say it makes you feel as if you have more power than you do in a farang / farang relationship but it’s the difference between a job interview where the company has specifically recruited you because of your unique talents and a job interview after you’ve been laid off during a recession. In one you feel like you’re in a position of control. If the company wants you then they need to demonstrate that they can provide you with the working environment and compensation that you feel entitled to. In the other scenario you’re just happy to have gotten the interview. You know what you think you’re worth but the phone isn’t exactly ringing off the hook so you’ll probably take whatever they offer even if it’s not what you think is fair.
One needs to look no farther than romantic imagery in the media to see how imbalanced the relationship process is in farang / farang relationships. How does a man show he loves a woman? He buys her roses, chocolates, diamonds, gold, and other gifts. If he’s truly the romantic type he does something huge like fly her off to Paris for an amorous holiday. How does a woman show she loves her husband? Well if we are to believe the media representation of farang / farang relationships then a peck on the cheek might be ample reward for those chocolates. Giving him sex might be the payoff for a diamond ring or a Paris holiday.
The idea of a man constantly showing his wife with gifts and affection is seen as romantic. The idea of a woman who showers her husband with signs of affection is seen as weak and of low self-esteem. In fact, if we’re to believe the media then the best gift a wife can give her husband is to leave him alone. How is the husband rewarded for mowing the lawn and taking care of the manly household chores? He’s allowed to watch football on television. What is the husband’s reward for taking his wife out to go see a "chick flick" which bored him to tears? He gets to go hang out with his mates for a boys night out.
Better yet, can you imagine seeing on television a show where after taking his wife out for a very expensive and romantic dinner his wife offered to give him a foot massage? Not the rub your big toe and then try to have sex type of massage but a proper hour long foot massage? Yet it would seem normal if a woman comes home from an exhausting day at the office, kicks off her shoes, and her husband massages her feet as she explains everything she’s been through that day. We call that kind of man romantic. In fact, that is the message that Western media promotes. Men being subservient to women is romantic and women being subservient to men is chauvinistic.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to say that love with a farang woman can’t be found or that you can’t find a farang woman who won’t jump through hoops to make the relationship as equal as possible but it’s much rarer in the Western world than in Thailand. From a social point of view this change in how equality has only occurred over the last 50 or 60 years. Back then you had housewives who took pride in performing their traditional roles. Interestingly, according to the University of Maryland, between 1950 and 2000 the number of divorces per 1000 women married more than doubled. Also of note is that the highest rate of divorce was during the 1970′s when women’s activism was at it’s peak. That’s obviously not enough data to make any sort of direct correlation but this blog post isn’t a PhD thesis so allow me some latitude.
And just as I’m not saying that finding love with a farang woman is impossible, I’m also not saying that Thai women are a piece of cake either. In addition to things like language and cultural issues you also have people who just don’t possess the qualities you look for in a partner and/or possess personality defects. I’ve dated more than a few girls who I hope to never see again even as a friend.
The bottom line is that I don’t agree with the people who think all farang women are fat, whining, bitches nor do I agree with the people who say that any man who dates a Thai woman is doing so for the sex, subservient attitude, or because he’s too much of a loser to find women back in the West. There are some very valid reasons why guys like to date Thai women and there are some very valid reasons why they don’t want to date Western women. It’s all about what we hope to find in a relationship. For instance, I have a mate I’ve known for well over 20 years. I’ve seen him go through countless relationships. The only long-term relationships he seems to have are with women who are controlling and dominating. He likes to be a bad boy. When he’s with submissive women he runs right over them. When he runs into a woman who wants to control him and tame him that is when he is the most happy. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work for me at all. I could never date the type of women he dates and he would never have a meaningful relationship with a Thai girl. We’re just wired differently.
That holds true for all men. There are some of us who aren’t satisfied with the type of women we meet in the West. That doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with those women. They just need to find someone who’s looking for that personality type. For us unsatisfied men, there are aspects of Thai culture that produce women who we’re more compatible with. Different strokes for different folks.
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@BB-obviously hit a raw nerve there.
@Sara: No raw nerve. Just trying to expose you for the racist you are.
@BB-Obviously touched a raw nerve there.
also in thai high society, which is mostly only in Bangkok, also a vey rich thai girl or woman who has sex with man or marry with him and also if the girl is richer than the man, he must pay her and very much, because the more a man pay, the more he appreciate her beauty and prove her of how much he really loves her….he must pay also her parents very much in case of marryage and to pay little, means that you dont find the girl so beautiful and she can refuse him for another man who is richer…believe me, they are not so interested in farangs in hight society, i would say that is a very very closed circuit amongst thai high society people and not even rich farangs have so much chances, may be very very very few…like the husband of the princess for example, but because he is one of the richest man in Canada….
Thai men only can have those girls and they pay them, just to appreciate their beauty, also many milions of bath, if not at level of hundreds milions…believe me please is really like that.
antonio
Brilliant article.
@Antonio: yawn . . . where are you getting your information, Stickman?
It all depends on what you define as hi-so. If you’re talking about only the upper, upper, upper crust of Thai society then what you’re saying might be true. But it’s also true in farang culture as well. Do you really think back in farangland you can get some princess (a real one) if you’re not also very rich or well connected? Do you think some waiter is going to be able to date President Obama’s daughter?
But if you define hi-so a little lower down such as someone who’s family has a lot of money, of course they want their daughter to marry well. All parents do. But if you are not some deadbeat and make a decent living then it’s not that big of a deal to date hi-so girls.
And the payment you reference, called sin sod, in most hi-so families is more of a token gesture. The parents give the money back to the couple right after the ceremony or buy the newlyweds a gift of equal value (house, car, etc). It’s for show.
I have not heard of anybody having to pay the woman directly just to appreciate her beauty unless she’s a prostitute. Where you get that I have no idea. I’ve dated fairly hi-so girls in Thailand as well as back home and there really isn’t much difference. If you’re dating a girl who wears $500 shoes she has certain expectations about the guys she dates. That’s true if she’s Thai or farang. You don’t have to give her money but she’s not going to be very impressed if you try to take her to McDonald’s either.
BBKK
dear friends….money back to couple who marry? may be more and more money all life till you will be sucked to death…dear friend, stop mention things only because you want to be right….Imy acknowledge abut thailand is also my work…please dont mention me anymore, i dont want to continue with someone who writes only to have right, no matter what, just like in the pubs….when you write…you loose the chance to relax and do something better….i dont want to read your nonsenses anymore and i switch off this blog because i dont intend have discussion with non constructive arguments…
bye bye
@Antonio: Poor Antonio. What’s the matter, you don’t like the truth. Is it easier for you if you can believe your very narrow view of Thai culture? Don’t believe me, here is what is said on ThaiVisa:
Firstly, it is never a condition and no approving parent (rich or poor) cares two hoots about it.
Let me put that another way, if practised as it should be, it is NEVER asked for – and if it is, then something is wrong right from the start – it is gesture, made to the parents in-law by the husband to be entirely of his own free will.
It is about an expression on the husband to be’s side to accept his role of care in the family – and that is a very traditional Thai (and South East Asian) practise (in reply to the forum member who questioned why in was so totaly oppisite to “dowry” as practised in places like India and Pakistan).
Yes, it is practised less and less nowadays, because the family structures are less and less what they were in the old days, but a lot of families do still practise it.
Where sinsot is practised honestly in Thai society, you will find that the parents in law often return most of it back with the other hand to the new couple as a wedding present – who suddenly find that the poor old dad (who hadnt a penny to his name before you married his daughter) has purchased them some land for them to build a house on – or it is spent in some other relivant context: to take the often poor abused buffulo (and the excuses which this animal provides), a rice farmer would buy his new son-in-law a “new” buffalo to pull the plough (if the one the son inlaw had was old).
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Sin-Sod-Explanation-t85581.html
Oh my gosh, that’s pretty much what I said, isn’t it? Or you can go on Stickman’s site and see the same exact thing.
I know people like you and Sara hate to be confronted with facts when you’ve spent so much time forming your negative opinions but you can’t simply wish them away.
I don’t write to be right. I write because you’re wrong.
BBKK
i speah thai almost better than english and i write for international press in 5 languages and i am invited in many thai government meetings…I know what I say…
may be you look and behave like the most of farangs who are heros only because you use the fact that thai women are poor…
but i stop this blog in this moment and you can continue your nonsenses in the pubs or in the thai pubs..
@Antonio: No offense but your English isn’t all that great so I’m really not that impressed if your Thai isn’t as good. Nor am I impressed by your job. So what? One of my mates owns a translation company and translates legal documents in Thai, English, Spanish, Italian and French. Big whoop. It doesn’t make him any more of an expert on Thailand. It just means he can speak a few languages.
And you’re invited to Thai government meetings? Who cares? I’m sure you would quit getting invited if you went around spouting off this kind of nonsense to them.
What would be relevant (unlike your language skills and your invites from the government) is if you have dated or married a Thai woman before. Then your experience adds to the story. Continuously repeating your supposedly prestigious credentials doesn’t make you an expert on Thailand.
And I’m not even saying I’m an expert. But I do know what you’ve said to be patently false. I’ve even linked to sources where you can verify that. I don’t expect you to believe me because of my job or how many languages I speak. I can only present to you what I know from dating Thai women.
And no, sorry, I am not a hero preying on poor Thais. Many of the women I date are middle and upper class Thais. They don’t need my money. Yes, believe it or not I’m actually an entertaining and fun person.
Hmmmmm……
Average looking Farang goes up to bunch of Farang girls in a bar. Asks “can I buy anyone a drink”?
Farang girls reply in unison “F###K off asshole, think you can buy us a drink then get into out pants, I buy my own beer you ugly short ass wimp. I want Brad Pitt lookalike millionaire not some Mr average tosspot. Piss off or I call security”.
Average looking Farang goes up to bunch of Los girls in a bar. Asks “can I buy anyone a drink”?
Los girls reply in unison “you velly hansom man meester, you buy me drink and sit on my seat, I sit on your knee”.
Anyone spot the difference….
(I look like Brad and I’m worth over a million, and I still struggle to pull if they are in a crowd…)
Dear mr. Bangkok
mr. Antonio knows english good enough, in fact you understand very well all contents of his message.
Let us be honest. Everywhere in the world is aware that Thailand is famous to be “SEX INDUSTRY”. When somebody goes to Thailand, first whet they tell him: You go for sex eh?” and everybody in Thailand is aware of how dangerous is thai women so organized to hunt farangs, with organized chat rooms and many other ways. Of course, the majority of people there are poor and a person who does not work for Thai Government, has a pension of 300 to 500 bath a month which is about 10 us dollars a month and have a farang as husband means the end of their economical problems.
Same things happened in my Country, in France and in Italy right after war, we were so poor and french or Italian women were very easy to get from American soldiers. But now is completely different. Same things happened to eastern european women in the 60 and 70 and 80, till before the fall of Berliner wall. We could go to Poland, Ceccoslovacchia, Hungry, Romania and women were very friendly and very easy to get, just a pair of socks or a nice smelling soap was enough to take them to be. Now if you try, you must give them the whole shop.
Same think could happend in Thailand and philippines Vietnam, Camboia, if the population had same standard of living as we have.
In Thailand, farangs go mostly for cheap sex and it is a fact. When they marry, they do not know thai language, not even if they live there since 30 years and Thai girls do not speak english, or if they speak it, is almost not possible to understand and it is true that there is big difference in age, sometime also 40 years between them and tradition and culture are so much different, so how can be love? is only convenience, the all world know and every farang should admit it.
Of course, is not for everybody the same, there are also some rare exception. There are some farangs like mr Bangkok, so brilliant and outgoing and handsome, to have success with thai women for his beauty and style.
We are really luck and thanksful to mr. Bangkok that he does not send us a photo of his beauty, otherwise our computer could explode!!!!
This post has been edited by the Admin to remove an offensive, distasteful, and completely out of line comment. This is the first and last warning on the topic.
In Thailand, farangs go mostly for cheap sex and it is a fact. When they marry, they do not know thai language, not even if they live there since 30 years and Thai girls do not speak english, or if they speak it, is almost not possible to understand and it is true that there is big difference in age, sometime also 40 years between them and tradition and culture are so much different, so how can be love? is only convenience, the all world know and every farang should admit it.
This statement proves you have no clue what you’re talking about. One of my best mates used to work for the Thai government and all the meetings were in Thai so he speaks business level Thai fluently. I think he’s been here 6 or 7 years. I have another friend who has only been here 3 years who not only speaks Bangkok Thai fairly well but can speak Isaan Thai and can even get by in Laotian if needed.
Dude, you can’t characterize every situation in Thailand according to some stereotype you have in your head. What if I started dismissing everything you said because you’re a cheese eating surrender monkey? Is it fair to treat an entire race of people like whores just because your only interactions are with whores?
Have you ever gone out and really, really met Thai people? My estate agent and my landlord both got their undergrad degrees in the US. They speak perfect English. One of my best friends was married to an English guy and lived in London for four years, her English is better than yours. I know that because she took her GMAT (aptitude test for entering an MBA program) in English and scored very well.
Thailand is a wanderful Country, really best place in the world to live. First is very cheap and also if you have small incom or small penion you can enjoy nature, animals, food and very friendly people. This is a fact.
Is also a fact that you can enjoy life that is possible have sex very very cheap and with young girls and why not. I think all world knows that Thailand, Cambodia Cuba and some other Countryes have many men who are interested in sex and not in monuments. Look at Japan, is also Asia and girls also look like thai more or less and are also Buddhist, but same farangs go to Thailand, Cambodia philippines dont go to Japan for sex, because Japan is not poor and girls dont dipend on farangs.
I would like to see if Thailand coast of living were the same as in japan, how many farangs would go there…
Thai people are mostly poor, also if cleaned and have healthy food, but normally they are poor and most of them do not have pension and they have also problems of buyng medicines. Men in Thailand like to drink and change women for younger and farangs is really a solution for them.
May be some woman marry farangs is good, quite and always at home (like caregiver), but many, very many, when they meet a farang to marry, they have cruel program to stay wiyh him also smiling all time, as long as he buy a house and giver her money and help her family and some of them also when they marry with richer farang, has in her program, to kick her husband off the house he bought and have her thai husband in.
This happened so many times and also if somebody has better examples to show, this will not change the reality. Thai women are fiendly and smiling, but calculating everything they do and always in their interest and when they are jalous that farangs husband has love story with another woman, they are not jalous for love, but jalous and very angry because he could give his money to another woman. When thai woman gets angry, from smiling puppet, she turns ia violent screaming devil.
Marry and divorce in Thailand is a matter of days and if you ask a woman on her 40, she has childreen and she is divorced and is very difficult find a woman who really stay very long with first husband.
Antonio (dr. Antonio Favia.mediciner) is my employer and he has many meeting in asian Countryes and regarding Thailand, many farangs come back to Europe with aids, not to mention those who commet suicide, after having lost all money they have saved naivily with thai girl.
I would not look so much at good example of when some farangs is lucky, because he was lucky and wise to find right woman, but please all people who read this message, all farangs who go to Thailand, please be very very careful, thai women are only after your money and some good example does not change the reality.
Have nice time with all the wanderful things Thailand offers and have sex if you like enjoy their company.
involve in serious relation and marry a thai woman is not reccomandable….
not all farangs are so lucky and wise like mr. Bkk
Good luck and hope I have not written this message for nothing
as far as it concerns me, I also switch off here, in the hope somebody will understand.
Francis
People can pretty much express whatever opinions they want on here. However there are laws in Thailand governing certain things and this site respects those laws. We all know what I’m talking about. If people want to have discussions about that then they can take it off to another site.
@Francis: Nobody is denying that one shouldn’t be careful when dating. Nobody is saying that all Thai women are good, sweet, caring women. But what you and Antonio as saying is exactly the opposite which is also not true. I could list counter-examples to what both of you said until my fingers bleed but neither of you seem to want to back down off of your all or nothing stance.
You claim Antonio is a doctor so I cut both of you even less slack because you are men of science who should know that you can’t take small sample sizes and make ridiculously absurd blanket statements about an entire people.
Just recently I wrote a post about getting scammed out of 1000 baht. I obviously don’t believe that all Thai women are without fault. On the other hand, I do try to be balanced because I know a lot of Thai people from various levels of Thai society and I can guarantee you if they read the trash you and Antonio wrote they would be very upset because it is nothing like them.
And you really add nothing to the discussion. You just repeat tired old stereotypes that are already all over the internet. You haven’t shared any personal experiences as many others have. You haven’t said anything I can’t already read on a hundred other sites. Why do you even bother?
That’s the question that I keep asking. You must really hate these women. Or you’re just so scared of them that you want to validate your fear by getting others to fear them. I don’t know, but all I know is that you have zero expertise on the subject yet you feel the need to continue to post and re-post the same stuff. We get it. We’ve read the internet too.
But to anybody who doesn’t spend all of their time thinking their bar girl is different than the rest and goes out and tries to meet nice, normal Thai women most of what you say just doesn’t match with our experiences. So who are we supposed to believe, you who have not offered any evidence of actually been active in dating Thai women or our own experiences?
involve in serious relation and marry a thai woman is not reccomandable….
not all farangs are so lucky and wise like mr. Bkk
Not recommendable by who? You? Have you ever dated a Thai girl before? Have you ever been married to a Thai girl before? What experience are you speaking from? What you’ve read on the internet?
Dear Billy,
With all do respect for all your knowledge about Thailand and Thai woman which seems you have a lot, let me give you a real example of a non Thai well educated woman , not a bar girl who happen to ruin my marriage in my company, in the front of my staff with no shame or respect even I was pregnant with my second child, trying to make my son to call her mom, and eventually after she got my husband she ruined his life too by cheating on him with another man, in the house he paid, in the bedsheets he bought, in the car he bought for her, etc etc… and you know why ? Because she finally realized that with all her charm and seduction of being a good Thai educated girl, she was not able to put hands on my (our) company, money and assets we have in Thailand. She did not managed to make me go away from here like many other farangs woman would do… sight ! So they both went away to Camel countries! hahaha. He is working his but off and she is fucking around with Arabs. ! Perfect . Everyone gets what deserves in life! Well again I’m not saying that all Thai woman are bad but you know the saying ” exceptions strengthens the rules”. Sorry BB but trusting Thai woman is like playing with the fire. And most of the time you get burned. Like you just said this is well known all over the world and no point to debate it anymore since we all know what in generally the Thai woman stands for. and everyone tried to express more or less the same opinion but with different wording or examples. If you are one of the lucky once to get and find the perfect match of your life in Thailand then you are indeed a lucky man … May I ask what is the age difference between you and your lovely, and what are your monthly bills ? GMA
Of course your points are valid and I fully agree with what you are saying. Unfortunately on this forum seems to be some people who are very good in arguing without actually accepting the reality and trying to find all kind of excuses why is this and why is that. Guess after living in Thailand for many years many farangs start to get into the Thai habit of talking out of point and always have a back door for escape of the real fact. But hey no need to waist our time and try to debate on something which is obvious. Better find another forum to write. Not to mention that wen a farang woman like me or Sara or others are trying to raise a point we are made “racist” ,”ugly”, and ” behind” compared with the Thai woman. So I will stop my comments here as well and let Mr. Ruai and Mr. Billy to debate further. They don’t seems to like or accept other persons opinion. GMA
Ups ! My last post was for Francis .
The problem is this:
Western girls believe “Sex in the City”. That’s why they all end up alone and lonely.
You see men are desirable as providers – hunters, gatherers. As most men get older their earning potential rises, and they become more desirable as providers. At 60 we earn a shedload of money and can still father children. That makes us a pretty good target for younger girls.
Most woman on the other hand drop off alarmingly after 29. Looks go, fat arrives, tits sag, and childbearing ability decreases alarmingly. And this is exactly what made them desirable – sexual allure.
Imagine it as two exponential curves set on an East-West axis of age, and a North-South axis of desirability. The mens desirability goes UP, the womens goes DOWN. They cross paths at about 30.
Before anyone points out the obvious – the earning potential of women also goes up with age – but most men don’t pick women for their money, and the ones who do are assholes.
So we now have a generation of overweight, single and unhappy Western women wondering what happened.
You should change your name to Dickhead O’tool.
GMA,
Not to speak for Billy but allow me to respond with my own opinion here. That same exact thing can happen anywhere.
As far as trusting Thai women, I trust those that deserve to be trusted. Likewise I trust farang women that deserve to be trusted.
The problem many men have when they come over here is that they’re like a piece of fresh meat being set before wolves. The predators will pounce on a guy who looks like he feels unloved and is looking for someone who will simply treat him nice. But if you come to the dating scene without that scent of desperation the wolves tend to give you a wide berth.
I am not currently seeing anyone seriously so I can only give you stats on my last girlfriend:
Age Difference: about 10 years (I say about because it ranged between 9 and 10 so for several months it would be 9 and then after my birthday it was 10 then she would have her birthday and it was back to 9)
Monthly Expenses:
Lunch 3 or 4 times per week (on her lunch break at work): 100 baht per meal
Dinner 3 or 4 times per week: 500 baht per meal (average – including drinks)
Entertainment (i.e. Fri/Sat nights, movies, disco): 1000 – 2000 baht per night
Gifts: Maybe 1000 – 2000 once or twice a month
Keep in mind that when I say 100 baht for lunch, I’m talking the cost of her lunch only since I would have to buy my own lunch regardless. I paid 200 total and figure her share as being half. Same for dinner. Entertainment is a little trickier to divide evenly by two which is why the range is so large. If we go out with a group of friends for karaoke or to a nightclub and we share a bottle amongst a group or split other costs, I’m simply trying to come up with what her share of the bill would be if she was paying for herself.
So, really, this is pretty comparable to a farang relationship except at Thailand pricing. In total, meals and all, we’re looking around $350′ish USD per month. Mind you, especially when the entertainment was her idea she offered to pay though I refused. For instance, if she said she wanted to go to karaoke because her friends were going she would sneakily attempt to pay when I wasn’t looking.
And this also doesn’t include when she would buy me little gifts here or there or she wouldn’t buy stuff for my apartment when she thought I needed them.
So does this sound like a gal who was out with me just for my money? She makes a very decent wage for a Thai (roughly about what a farang school teacher at a decent school would make). She would have scoffed at the idea that I just give her money.
To be honest, I see very little difference between that and a normal relationship with a farang woman. Except of course, the things that Thai women bring to the table that farang women often do not (which have been covered to death elsewhere on this site).
But not every woman is like her. Just like back home you’ll find your fair share of gold diggers and con artists as well. Back home I’ve worked in high profile industries with all of the glitz and glamour and I’ve seen these types. Perhaps that’s why I’ve been able to steer so far clear of them over in Thailand. I’ve seen how they operate. Thai or farang a gold digger has a certain MO. The questions they ask, how they steer the conversation, how aggressive they are in pursing you, etc.
But if you’re just Joe Normal and you’ve never been the target of gold diggers and you come to Thailand you’re easy prey for them. You’ll never see it coming. In fact, you’ll never see it coming even if you read 1000 horror stories and your friends blare it from bullhorns.
See a lack of self confidence or self esteem has an oder and that oder attracts certain types of people. Unfortunately, farang culture tends to strip many men of their confidence and self-esteem. A bad divorce can be emotionally disastrous. A lifetime of harsh rejections can damage someone. Even a lifetime at a soul crushing job can rob someone of their confidence and self-esteem.
The problem in Thailand generally tends to be that the wolves know where their prey are. They know where these guys go online. They know where they hang out when they come to Thailand. They know the bars and hotels and restaurants that attract farangs and from there it’s just a matter of sitting back and waiting for your prey to come to you.
Another problem a lot of guys have is that they get used to the Thailand lifestyle and think they can purchase happiness. They think you go out and pick a girl and agree to pay her X amount every month and she’ll cook, clean, and have sex with you on demand. What kind of girl would agree to such an arrangement?
If you go fishing in that pond don’t be surprised by what you catch. But if you get out of that dating pool you’re far more likely to meet more women like the one I described above than the types you describe.
Billy wrote a great post about this a long time ago (I think it was him). It’s like target marketing. If you’re trying to meet nice, traditional Thai women they don’t hang out on Sukhumvit (or lower Suk as it’s called). You have to figure out where they hang out and go find them. Go out and get involved in a hobby. If you want to meet a girl with a head on her shoulders then go to a lecture series or an art exhibition. Get involved doing charity work.
If a guy is willing to get himself out of the bar and disco scene there are so many truly lovely Thai women out there.
Ronnie old chap,
Excellent retort, I always a good high spirited debate on the internet. I particularly liked your in depth analysis of my comment, and the counter argument you proposed.
Interesting subject.
I think the original article is quite good and the writer was careful to say several times that he was generally speaking, and that exceptions are myriad.
But few have mentioned here about the other aspects of a relationship like intellectual, emotional, cultural compatibility etc.
If all you’re looking for is sex appeal and attractiveness….Thai women win the prize over farang women every time (though in most cases they are competing with women who are considerably older than they and who have given you some embitterment besides).
I’m an older guy who prefers Thai women who are 20 or more yrs younger and have no children, tattoos or addictions to cigarettes and booze. I have very little money, work in Thailand, and I make out just fine because my needs are few and they are met.
What I have found in my years of experience with Thai women is they are sadly uneducated and pretty shallow (and men also near as I can tell) ….. I know many hi-so educated Thais as well, and I think there are Isan bar girls who measure up better in worldliness and curiosity….though as has been pointed out they generally have avaricious intentions.
Thai women are just not that interesting really.
I am satisfied with my mostly superficial mostly sexual relationships with Thai girls. I’ve had my fill of bright motivated demanding go-getter Western women. But seriously, if I was going to marry or have some long-tern relationship my expectations would be significantly lower for Thai women meeting my emotional, intellectual needs…than for a Western woman.
Its all in what you’re looking for.
If you want a good roll in the hay or even a long-term sexual relationship….you can buy it here….cheaply or expensively depending on your tastes. Take it for what it is, use your head and you’ll be fine.
But I really think for no amount of money can you find a deeply emotionally compatible woman here unless you’ve spent years, speak Thai quite fluently and are determined to make a lot of allowances. Finding a Thai girl who laughs at your jokes….and actually gets them…is quite a daunting task.
Personally I never even look at or think about farang women anymore.
@Guava: I would elaborate that if you aren’t dating women so far out of your age range it’s a little different. Sure, no well educated Thai woman is going to date a guy 20 years her senior but if you keep the age range about 10 years or so (and don’t necessarily look like her father or grandfather) you can find many, many women who will get your jokes. Obviously there are going to be some language issues but I’ve found the same in English/American sort of relationships. Sometimes humor or language barriers exist even amongst people who consider themselves to be native English speakers.
I have several Thai friends who speak English very well but they comment that the hardest thing is humor. They would rather see a drama or action flick than a comedy because so much humor is plays on words or specific to pop-culture that it’s hard for them to understand that. I’m sure you would have the same issues watching a Thai comedy that was subtitled in English.
I am African American and very well educated and I have to say living in thailand has made me very home sick to say the least. I my kitchen, good television, and AMERICAN WOMEN. Thai women are just ok they are small they have no bodies I dont have much experience with them I have a thai girlfriend and I feel like such a dog for saying this but I am only with her cause I know she comes from a good family she has her own money and can take care of herself but that being said she is very annoying and when she does not get her way she yells at me all the time. If any lonley western women read this post get back at me I miss having a real date.
easy answer…
99% of the farang dudes that comes to this country are losers and cant get shit back home.
CASH is King! and these people knows it. thats why they come here with their hard earned cash and spend it like rockstars here.
Or perhaps they have been done over by overweight avaricious idle brain dead western women.
My ex wife took the lot. House, cars, investments, the bloody lot. She delayed and appealed for SIX YEARS. By the time I got my share and paid my lawyers off I had bugger all left. I would have been better off putting contract on the bitch.
I married a Japanese girl. Never looked back.
I am happy. My ex wife is rich, single and depressed.
Well congradulations on your new found happiness with your Japanese bride I am happy for you I have been to Japan and I know alot of beautiful knock outs are in Japan. At the end of the day I guess it all comes down to this whats good for some people may not be good for everybody. I know alot of foriegners that love thailand and love thaiwoman a few of my friends have kids with thai women and they love it here they are truly happy for me its kind of a nightmare though.
Being a black man here is very trying the women dont like me thats the honest truth at least not any good ones and no Thai person will ever hire me for a job. Your skin color in Thailand speaks voloumes about you instead of your character which is really sad in my case. Honestly at this point I just want to go home I am savin up right now for the move.
Billy..you havent a clue! where the hell gives you the idea to group all people off your obviously bad experiences with western women?
Ive had relationships with women from all over the world..no Bs call girl crap but proper lasting relationships
What you have said is not only false one sided bordering on racist junk
It shows you really cant have had that many girlfriends growing up or a adult
as from 4 peoples opinion here you dont have a scooby!
Here’s what I don’t understand. How is it possible,for an uneducated, 20 something year old bar girl,or farm girl, from a 3rd world country,to fool, and manipulate, a supposedly wise 50-60 year old ,educated , and experienced man from a 1st world country?
These Farangs,who think they are so intellectually superior, display a total lack of intellect when getting into the snares of the vixens who hunt them.
I am only inBKK for 3 months, and I know of 4 Thai girls, who live in BKK, while their Farang boyfriends,live in USA, DENMARK,GERMANY AND UK.
These girls live very well, on their monthly support money from said boyfriends.Lovely apartments,nice clothes ,best of everything.One even has a car which she cannot drive. The boyfriends only visit once a year for a month. The rest of the time, these girls freely date and have fun with other men.
The dumb Farang (older and wiser?) boyfriend meanwhile believes that because he supports her financially, she will be faithful to him.
This defies logic. Can someone please enlighten me?
Yes this does happen, I see it often that a guy sending his girlfriend money and she is also seeing other guys, they are just struck down with numbness to the 2nd brain if you know what I mean, you cant blame the girls only the silly man sending them a few quid.
Normally the scenario is the 60ish year old man and the cute sweet 20 year old Thai girl and a bit of sweet talk and thats it, they become besotted by them, the clever man just comes on holiday has a huge amount of fun and goes home.
The 2nd clever man comes her to retire after having a few flings on past holidays, then finds his soul mate to live with when here retired, not a bar girl, there are plenty of normal Thai ladies who are nice and genuine and make a good wife, they dont have the hang ups and bad attitude of many western women so can make a good soul mate but you have to work at it same as any relationship.
I have been many times in Thailand, with many friends, may be same as you boys…looking for what in my Country dennmark was not so easy and so cheap.
results? I did not like visit bars, because i do not smoke and drink and therefore was not so easy like for most of farangs. Results? I have met many normal (normal???) women, I mean, not at bars, well, was not really so difficult find someone from time to time and have sex, but I did not kno thai culture, which is if farang have sex with thai lady, she is automatically his wife. Then I learnt that I had to accept that way, but escape everytime i could escape, otherwise I would have been in touble. My friends were not same as me, Lars marryed, bought house in Isan nong khai and after few months together with thai wife, he went back to Tonder and when he was back in Nong Khai, his wife was marryed again with thai much younger and strong man and he lost house and money. Then bjorn told me that he married in Udonthani and his wife ( I do not know how) was able to make him spend 6 milions of bath and after that, she divorced quickly from him and another friend also name bjorn, bought big house and married, but his wife took brother with in the house and brother always wanted money and fight and now he is is a big trouble.
I read that many of you hav been lucky with thai lady, but i understand that is always a big risk when we do not understand their culture and their languages.
Is really all these true stories only coincidences? can somebody explain better?
paul
I can explain it better . . . your friends are idiots. Like you said, how can a girl force you to spend 6 million baht? Well, the only way that happens is if you are a very weak person. Probably couldn’t ever get laid back in Denmark and then he throws all his money at the first thing that spreads its legs.
And none of this has to do with culture or language. The only word that your friends needed to learn to save themselves from their problems was “NO.” Guess what? In any culture if you let your gf/wife walk all over you she will not have any respect for you.
I don’t mean to sound like I condone treating your gf/wife poorly but there have to be limits. Your average Thai girl makes about 10,000 baht per month. Your friend spent 50 years worth of money on her. There is absolutely no excuse for that. A girl in Udon Thani could only spend that much money if she thought she had a total fool on the hook and was trying to rob him blind.
The problem is that most people (it seems yourself and your friends included) have no idea what a real relationship is about. It’s not Thai culture to be greedy or spend money with abandon. But it is the culture of a thief. If you can’t tell the difference between real love and a girl who is only with you as long as you’re buying her things then . . . that has nothing to do with Thai culture, my friend.
but try be with thai wife and you will see how difficult is to escape from their request, almost impossible and also dangerous.
An old man farangs want sex and love? how is possible in Thailand if not pay and where is limit?
I understand that is impossible that a thai woman can truly love an old farang
I repeat is impossible , is everything a play
farangs women may be not sosmiling and may be not so young and not easy find, but more sincere
paul
@paul: It’s not impossible but then again, what do you think a 20 year old girl wants with a 60 year old guy? If you’re that stupid to think she really loves you then you and your friends deserve to lose every penny you’ve lost.
may be we are stupid and they are very clever.
But I think are so many stupid men farangs and so many clever thai girls!!!
I know one town in Esan where farang married are about 20 in so small town and all farangs have same problems, may be not first year, but later. May be big city are not the same? I met a swedish man there and he wrote a book about these problems, name of boob is ” live in thai country side” but I cannot find it and he swear that he has written and edited it.
Do not worry about loosing so much money, life goes on
Paul
i will be happy one day if Thailand is able to educate its people better, more than standard 6 for northern Thai ( Isarn ). Then you will see a change, girls will not want to go to BKK or Pattaya,Phuket, but Thai i hate to say it,t hey want something easy, sometimes they are lazy. EAsy money, look how they pay. bad reputation, too much corruption. Being a bar girl is not a good life, even if u say the girls well paid and dont have to work alot. After the bar then what? the men do not care what become of them. also Thai children who abused by Farang, human trafficking, sex trade, will you say this is good too?
do you know the lives it ruined, do you know each story behind the lives. NO. It is misery for the people, even if they are smiling in your face and laughing. I cannot blame Farang only, these things were in Thailand before they came, but the great money the farang brings only make it alot worse. they can buy and those sell Thais for nothing.
Yes, Thailand was never colonized, she was free, she never knew about having a superior culture, but i think, now Thailand is worse than if there was colonization.
Thats a interesting little bit but I dont think things are that deep some people choose to go into corruption while others dont. I dont think foreigners are the main source of it either.
We would all be happy if Thailand would educate it’s poor. But I don’t think things would change as much as you think they would. Even today university educated women ask their farang boyfriends for allowances on top of their decent salaries because . . . . they think they should be “taken care of.”
There are poor in every society and you’re dead-on that the girls who go into prostitution here are mostly lazy. That’s how they got into it. Right now, there’s a labor shortage in Thailand so just about anybody who wants to find legitimate work can find it. But partying every night and sleeping all day sound like a hell of a lot better alternative than working 12 hours a day, six days a week and making less than 10,000 baht per month.
But why is that their option? Oh, because they were lazy in school too. Most are dropouts. They just figured they were going to meet a rich farang and that was that. Why study?
Working in the bar is actually a pretty good life all things considered. I can’t say I would wish it on anybody because it implies a lack of morales and a hard work ethic that will doom any individual but let’s say that a girl working in the bar can make a steady 30,000 baht per month while the average for girls with similar educational backgrounds working normal jobs is 7,000. She’s making 276,000 baht more per year than she would normally. In 4 years she can afford to buy a home which means never having to worry about a roof over her head when she moved back home.
But does she do that? Sadly, most don’t. They start buying the latest mobile phones, getting drunk, and gambling the money away. So at the end of their “tour” in Bangkok or Pattaya they go home with little more than they came with. But again, is that the fault of the profession or is it because the profession lures in lazy, materialistic people?
You ask if I know the stories behind the lives and then assume the answer is no. I’m going to assume I know far, far, far more current and former bar girls than you do so I do know the stories.
And you do know that Thai/Farang prostitution only accounts for about 10% of all prostitution in Thailand, don’t you? The other 90% is Thai/Thai. So, are you asking us to feel more sorry for the girls who get paid more, work in better conditions, and actually have a chance of finding a relationship (no Thai guy would ever marry a prostitute)?
You know just enough about this subject to be dangerous. The parts you don’t know you should do more listening than telling.
ive met a few girls recently in ther mid-twenties who owned their own condo and are running/starting small businesses (usually with a farang): diving shop, internet café, beauty salon, e-bay/export stuff…
all of them are still doing some freelance whoring… But they pick their customers, and dont really need the money. Looks more like hunting for a partner while selling their puss in the meanwhile. Usually those business oriented gals dont have kids and were married or deeply involved with a falang. They had teach them a way to gain their freedom with other means.
Two-year-old post but… I really don’t think the writer has ever had a real, fulfilling relationship with farang or non-farang.
You’re basing your worldview on crappy relationships and ones in the media. You see women in black and white terms. You see relationships in strictly economic terms (yet miss out on a lot of values important to people who…aren’t you). You forget about societal inequalities and social norms involved in both cultures (washing feet in the West? maybe if you’re Jesus).
Also, these two statements aren’t even true anecdotally:
you’re far more likely to find an attractive man married to an average looking woman than to find an attractive woman married to an average looking man.
It’s very difficult for a woman to screw up on a date unless she doesn’t show up, passes out drunk, or belches at the table. It’s hard for her to screw up the date because she is not the one auditioning.
Reread this and tell me you DON’T sound like an insecure girls-are-evil douche making excuses for why it’s easier for him to date in a where he’s seen as a catch/enjoys a huge economic advantage. So you need a partner who is more of a caregiver and puts the family first? Yeah, lots of folks do, no shame. Lots of folks find this in every culture.
Finding someone who will put you on a pedestal because you can provide them a halfway decent lifestyle is another matter…
PS Divorce rates in the West are not 50 percent and are even lower among the scary educated women who you can’t seem to wrap your head around being able to show a little mutual consideration to their partners. Do your research.
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