I have a good mate who is married to a non-Thai woman. Although separated by several continents she has many of the same values as a Thai woman. They were having dinner one night with a farang couple. My mate’s wife offhandedly mentioned that sometimes when her husband gets home from work she’ll pour a basin of water and wash his feet.
The farang woman was aghast. She, in her self-righteous zeal, berated the wife for being subservient. She told her she should more pride in herself and not allow herself to be treated like a slave.
The wife, biting her tongue as best she could, told the farang woman that she doesn’t do it because he expects her to. For her it is a way of showing appreciation. Her husband provides for her very well and they own several beautiful homes. She wants for nothing. She went on to tell the farang that her husband is a loving and caring man who attends to her emotionally as well as financially and that she loves him very much. She asked why it should seem so strange to do something for her husband that he finds relaxing and enjoying.
Like I said, she was biting her tongue as best she could but her feelings were eventually betrayed in her last sentence on the topic. "Perhaps if you Western women showed your husbands some respect and appreciation for being a good husband the divorce rate in your country wouldn’t be over 50%."
This interaction is a perfect illustration of why so many farang men fall in love with Thai women. It also serves to illustrate why so many farang women simply cannot grasp why farang men seem to prefer Thai women. The farang women think they know but they are as wrong as first timer to Thailand who can’t see past the Thai smile.
Farang women, generally, think that farang men are attracted to Thai women is because they are submissive. They think the men are attracted because they can get a girlfriend half their age. They think that the men are attracted to the tight little Asian bodies.
The farang woman is correct but only to a certain degree. Yes, men are attracted to those things but there’s more to it than just that. Farang men also want to feel appreciated and respected. Yet, as the story told above demonstrates your average farang woman would never lower themselves. Farang women cherish their equality too much to do something that seems to them to be so one-sided.
However there’s an inequality in most farang / farang relationships. By that I mean that when you weigh all of the tangible and intangible qualities each party brings to the relationship the man, generally, is bringing more to the table than the woman. For instance, in few farang / farang marriages does the husband earn less than the wife. Likewise, you’re far more likely to find an attractive man married to an average looking woman than to find an attractive woman married to an average looking man. There are no absolutes here but just going by the numbers this is more true than not.
So you have these inequalities in most relationships. I know that’s a hard pill for some people to swallow but one only need to look at the number of men who graduate with degrees in economics, mathematics, computer science, medicine, and the other hard sciences vs. the number of women. Men, just going by the numbers, are more likely to be the higher earner. So right from the starting blocks you have an income discrepancy between the two. In order for the relationship to equalize she needs to bring something of the same value to the relationship.
Unfortunately, Western women cherish the concept of equality too much. Tell a secretary making £30,000 a year that she needs to bring something extra to the table in order to marry a software engineer making £60,000 and, rightly or wrongly, she’ll accuse you of being a chauvinist. So men just tend to accept that as part of life. Tradition says that their job is to be the primary earner so they accept it unquestioningly.
But there’s a catch. Even though, traditionally, that means that the woman should shoulder more of the household chores and generally try to provide a good home life for her husband who has been fulfilling his traditional role, many farang women feel that that role is outdated and beneath them. Whether that is true or not is not for me to answer but in one way or the other the woman has to bring things back to balance or the relationship simply isn’t going to work. Perhaps she’s much more attractive than her husband. That might even things out. Maybe she’s a wildcat in the sack. That might balance things out. Maybe she knows just when and just how to stroke her husband’s ego. Maybe that’s what evens things out. I don’t know what it is as it will be different for different couples but without the balance the relationship is doomed.
I believe this is why you often see so much hostility directed at farang women by farang men who have been fortunate enough to have a relationship with a Thai woman. Even if they don’t fully realize it consciously, it dawns on them that they’ve been getting the short end of the stick in most relationships. And like finding out your girlfriend has been sleeping around on you behind your back the farang man feels humiliated for being taken for such a fool. His rage is often so out of proportion with the actual damage done that he dismisses all farang women as . . . . well, I could list several derogatory terms here but I’ll allow the reader to fill in his/her own.
Personally, I don’t hate farang women. I don’t date them very often nowadays but I don’t hate them. I do prefer to date Thai women. Not for the reasons that most farang women might think but because Thai women tend to try to balance out the relationship. Obviously you cannot talk about an entire sex and not have exceptions. There are Thai women who’s mind set is more like the farang women I’ve described and there are farang women who have an outlook more like the Thai women I describe. That’s why I try to steer clear of making sweeping statements and say things like "tend to" or "normally."
It’s funny because most farang men have brainwashed themselves into believing many of the same things as farang women. I guess it’s natural since we come from the same culture. I remember the first time it really struck me. She was Thai with a good job, had a post-graduate degree, and was certainly not the poor farmer’s daughter stereotype. We were having dinner and when the food arrived she served me and then herself. When my water glass was half empty (or half full depending on how you look at it) she would fill it.
I was a little uncomfortable with that so I indicated she didn’t need to serve me. She insisted gently saying "You relax. I take care of you." As I thought about it, it made sense. If she likes you then demonstrating that she can be a good girlfriend or wife is very important to her. It would be the same as a guy holding a door open or pulling the seat out for his date. This is her way of saying that she likes me and that this is one of the qualities she intends to bring to the relationship.
Perhaps farang women will think she was being subservient but I thought of it as part of the dance we call dating. I show my ability to provide by taking her to a nice place to eat and she reciprocates by demonstrating that she can be a caring girlfriend. If anything, instead of viewing it as an act of weakness, as being subservient would imply, I viewed it as a sign that she was not the type of woman who would only take from the relationship without giving back. Obviously, a respectable quality.
Now if one contrasts that with a normal farang / farang date you start to recognize how the whole relationship imbalance manifests itself. It’s very difficult for a woman to screw up on a date unless she doesn’t show up, passes out drunk, or belches at the table. It’s hard for her to screw up the date because she is not the one auditioning. The man is primarily the one who is auditioning. So on a normal farang / farang date the man is expected to demonstrate all of the qualities that he can bring into the relationship and the woman will either approve (agree to a second date) or disapprove (decline a second date) without ever revealing her hand.
On a farang / Thai date both the man and woman are auditioning equally. This is true equality and I find it refreshingly honest which is why I prefer to date Thai women. When I date a Thai woman I feel as if I actually have some control over the situation. It is as much up to her to impress me as it is for me to impress her. I don’t want to say it makes you feel as if you have more power than you do in a farang / farang relationship but it’s the difference between a job interview where the company has specifically recruited you because of your unique talents and a job interview after you’ve been laid off during a recession. In one you feel like you’re in a position of control. If the company wants you then they need to demonstrate that they can provide you with the working environment and compensation that you feel entitled to. In the other scenario you’re just happy to have gotten the interview. You know what you think you’re worth but the phone isn’t exactly ringing off the hook so you’ll probably take whatever they offer even if it’s not what you think is fair.
One needs to look no farther than romantic imagery in the media to see how imbalanced the relationship process is in farang / farang relationships. How does a man show he loves a woman? He buys her roses, chocolates, diamonds, gold, and other gifts. If he’s truly the romantic type he does something huge like fly her off to Paris for an amorous holiday. How does a woman show she loves her husband? Well if we are to believe the media representation of farang / farang relationships then a peck on the cheek might be ample reward for those chocolates. Giving him sex might be the payoff for a diamond ring or a Paris holiday.
The idea of a man constantly showing his wife with gifts and affection is seen as romantic. The idea of a woman who showers her husband with signs of affection is seen as weak and of low self-esteem. In fact, if we’re to believe the media then the best gift a wife can give her husband is to leave him alone. How is the husband rewarded for mowing the lawn and taking care of the manly household chores? He’s allowed to watch football on television. What is the husband’s reward for taking his wife out to go see a "chick flick" which bored him to tears? He gets to go hang out with his mates for a boys night out.
Better yet, can you imagine seeing on television a show where after taking his wife out for a very expensive and romantic dinner his wife offered to give him a foot massage? Not the rub your big toe and then try to have sex type of massage but a proper hour long foot massage? Yet it would seem normal if a woman comes home from an exhausting day at the office, kicks off her shoes, and her husband massages her feet as she explains everything she’s been through that day. We call that kind of man romantic. In fact, that is the message that Western media promotes. Men being subservient to women is romantic and women being subservient to men is chauvinistic.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to say that love with a farang woman can’t be found or that you can’t find a farang woman who won’t jump through hoops to make the relationship as equal as possible but it’s much rarer in the Western world than in Thailand. From a social point of view this change in how equality has only occurred over the last 50 or 60 years. Back then you had housewives who took pride in performing their traditional roles. Interestingly, according to the University of Maryland, between 1950 and 2000 the number of divorces per 1000 women married more than doubled. Also of note is that the highest rate of divorce was during the 1970′s when women’s activism was at it’s peak. That’s obviously not enough data to make any sort of direct correlation but this blog post isn’t a PhD thesis so allow me some latitude.
And just as I’m not saying that finding love with a farang woman is impossible, I’m also not saying that Thai women are a piece of cake either. In addition to things like language and cultural issues you also have people who just don’t possess the qualities you look for in a partner and/or possess personality defects. I’ve dated more than a few girls who I hope to never see again even as a friend.
The bottom line is that I don’t agree with the people who think all farang women are fat, whining, bitches nor do I agree with the people who say that any man who dates a Thai woman is doing so for the sex, subservient attitude, or because he’s too much of a loser to find women back in the West. There are some very valid reasons why guys like to date Thai women and there are some very valid reasons why they don’t want to date Western women. It’s all about what we hope to find in a relationship. For instance, I have a mate I’ve known for well over 20 years. I’ve seen him go through countless relationships. The only long-term relationships he seems to have are with women who are controlling and dominating. He likes to be a bad boy. When he’s with submissive women he runs right over them. When he runs into a woman who wants to control him and tame him that is when he is the most happy. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work for me at all. I could never date the type of women he dates and he would never have a meaningful relationship with a Thai girl. We’re just wired differently.
That holds true for all men. There are some of us who aren’t satisfied with the type of women we meet in the West. That doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with those women. They just need to find someone who’s looking for that personality type. For us unsatisfied men, there are aspects of Thai culture that produce women who we’re more compatible with. Different strokes for different folks.
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You are right! Added to that is the women’s porno (romance novels) that teach a western worm to “tame” her man. If you read them they are all the same “wild bad boy” fall for herione “reforms into submissive husband.
I have to say, as a Farang woman new to Asia with no preconceptions – the vast majority of Farang men with Thai women I have seen have been pretty ugly and would have struggled to find a woman in another country as attractive as their Thai girlfriend. But I have also seen a lot of tired and bored looking Thai women with fat, pasty Western men – rather them than me. I don’t have a judgment – all relationships have an element of selfishness to them. It’s good to be all open about this but when it all comes down to it a lot of these men are getting beautiful women because of their wallets – lets face it. And rather than acting aggressive a lot of Western men I have seen tend to act ‘guilty’ when they see me – they know the score and their look is one of a child who has eaten sweets before dinner. I guess I am more old fashioned than these farang men and possibly some of the Thai women because I favour love over money. Maybe that’s why I’m single eh??
Hi Trudie,
I appreciate your views on this. Good to see a farang woman’s point of view.
I would say though that women going with guys for money isn’t a Thai thing. Obviously that happens in the West all of the time. Isn’t that what television shows like Sex and the City teach us? There are guys you might bang because it would be fun, they’re great lovers, and they really peak your interest, but you marry the safe and stable so you don’t end up supporting your paycheck to paycheck loverboy.
But I would also say that it’s more than just about money with many Thai women. A lot of them like how Western men appreciate them. Your average Western male treats women as equals . . . or even better than equal. In a Thai / Thai relationship the female is certainly on a lower level than her husband.
There’s also the issue that Thai women go to university at a rate far higher than men so it’s much harder for a single Thai woman to meet a university educated Thai male. If she enjoys the company of a man who is educated and is motivated then her chances she might be attracted to a Western male.
There are a lot of reasons Thai women are attracted to Western men. Many of the poorest are in it for the money. I don’t envy those guys but I don’t feel sorry for them either. They’ve made a choice to exchange the companionship of a beautiful woman for providing for her financially. Fair deal for both if that is what they both understand up front.
But there are many Thai/Farang relationships that are built on more than that. I think at least some of the “guilty” looks you get are your perception. I know that when I get a stare from a farang woman when I’m with a university educated Thai woman working in a good job that look you might see on my face is embarrassment for the girl since I know the first thought running through the farang woman’s head is that the girl is with me only for my money.
Billy
I think prostitution comes in many forms. And shows like Sex in the City are following the values which seem to want to emasculate men. All the men in sex and the city are losers and the subtext is that only mr big is worth anything – he’s loaded. I hate sex in the city personally. I also find most men don’t know the meaning of the words ‘great lover’ as many men are selfish and I’ve never been interested in ‘safe and stable’ – I think this is yet another stereotype of women. And I have never met a man who I can depend on financially – why do men always say that?? where are these men with big paychecks??
Women want masterful men – strength and kindness. Your average Western man doesn’t treat women like equals at all I have to say. I don’t agree with that. I don’t think Thai women are on a lower level. I like to show tenderness to a man and feel like a ‘female’ – my ‘problem’ is that I expect to be treated with respect in return. There is nothing nicer for any woman the world over than to feed, wash, bathe, stroke and massage her man but what most women don’t want is just to get a few baht in return!!
The issue is that western women have got over the Cinderella story and have been bombarded with messages that a man cannot make you complete and so they’ve gone with this and then thought – ‘actually you’re right and not only can they not make me happy but they actually piss me off and I’m not going to stand for it’ – and so they start having fun, being independent and men are like ‘god, farang women are so ballsy and aggressive’ – we can’t win and however women have acted – whether they’re on 100k a year or bathing your feet in fresh ylang ylang flowers we are always in the wrong it seems!
I’ve only been in Bangkok for weeks rather than months so I’m only going off what I see – I was surprised at the ‘guilty’ looks and it is definitely there – I was quite surprised – the only reason I say it is because I have experienced it – I met a farang guy with his asian wife the other day – now they might have the best relationship in the world but what came across was he was desperately trying to act like they really got on and had this great thing going – I’m not saying she was using him for his money but there was no spark. I see farang men with Asian women who are obviously friends, colleagues and genuine relationships – you can spot those because they also stand out. I saw a loved up couple in a bar the other week – him farang and she Thai and they were obviously completely smitten.
Yes, not all farang/Thai relationships are about money. I know a fair few Thai women who don’t bow down to the mighty dollar. And it isn’t my first thought but lets face it – all those ugly men with beautiful women – they know they wouldn’t have a cat in hells chance if they didn’t have a white face!!
Somewhere on here I saw farang women vs Thai women as if there is some sort of competition – women are not in competition. I actually enjoy being a female farang out here – it is the first time in my life I have felt remotely exotic and coming from England that’s a big deal!!! And I also have to say that although good looking western men who haven’t gone to seed are not that common here I have had loads of attention. In a few weeks I have been approached, chatted up and asked out be a few men. You posters take the view that every farang woman is jealous of Thai women. I think Thai women are attractive and great – I think all women are. I’m young, single, attractive, blonde and loving Bangkok, enjoying my job and all the boring farang men can go out with as many Thai beauties as they please – rather that than hassling me!!
Hi Trudie,
Perhaps you should consider doing a post here. We accept all points of view.
I’ve even been trying to recruit some Thai women to share their thoughts and views.
And I’m not sure if you’re implying that I share some of these points of view but I’m trying to look at this as a completely objective observer. Of course you’re going to have to make some generalizations. That’s the tradeoff in writing about any sort of social trend.
So while you may hate Sex and the City, the fact that it’s a massive hit in the US and has even been turned into a feature film speaks loudly that this isn’t some isolated outlook on men. And for men, I think the show can be best summed up by Brian (the dog) on Family Guy when he asks “So the show is about three prostitutes and their mother?”
While you may not be passing judgment stay in BKK a few more months and meet some of your farang girlfriends. You’ll see a lot of resentment out there. And if you probe any deeper you’ll hear words like “prostitute” and “whore” sprinkled liberally in their conversations about Thai women.
Are all women of that opinion? No, but the ones who are, are in great enough numbers and vocal enough to make most men feel this is a common view of them and their girlfriends.
Similarly there are a lot of aging men who are latching onto the first thing that doesn’t say “no.” I know a lot of farangs with Thai girlfriends and most of them are in very serious relationships not based on money. Hell, some of these guys are school teachers
I don’t think you and I disagree as much as you think we do. You notice in my article I write about the tension and the anger coming out of inequality. And even you state that you would love to treat a man if you felt you were getting equal in return. That is the perfect relationship. Give and take equally.
That is the point of the post. Farang men hate Western women because they don’t feel they are getting treated equally back in the West and Western women see these Thai women giving to their partner and they call them whores.
I don’t hate Western women. I am trying to describe why some men do. I am also trying to articulate why some farang women hate Thai women. It’s an observation about human behavior rather than an endorsement of their views.
I would suggest you read one of my other posts where I give the men an examination that you seldom see. Most guys are so beaten down by Western society that when they come to Thailand they are suckers for getting into bad relationships for the wrong reasons.
http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2008/07/02/tongue-tied-farangs/
Again, I encourage you to take me up on the offer to post your own posts on here. I would really enjoy to hear your points of view as you begin to settle into Thailand.
Billy
I did read the other article. And I have to say that I haven’t met that many women who hate other women. I know there are genuine relationships but from what I have seen so far there are a lot of ugly white guys with Thai women who are with them because they are farang and no other reason.
Western men don’t allow western women to be feminine- most western men seem to either want a girl who looks up to him and won’t compete or they want a woman with money who will take care of them. In England I found that if I let on that I was intelligent a lot of men weren’t as interested as if I just listened to them talking about themselves. Women’s liberation has meant that men don’t like us any more. I do agree that women in the west could learn how to be more gentle with their men but this works both ways.
I think the problem is that many western career women have is that they see men for what they are and don’t like them. I personally see men for who they are and choose when I like them. A few years ago we were all being told – by a man – that we should read men are from mars and women are from venus – if only eh? Men might be from mars and we all know about ‘the cave’ but there was one big drawback with the book – men don’t read that kind of shite.
I think the resentment from farang women in BKK is that they feel that it always has been a man’s world. Yoko Ono might be slightly batty but she had a point when she said ‘women are the niggers of the world.’ And she’s Asian.
I do understand farang’s excitement at realising there is a breed of woman who laughs at all your jokes, is stick thin and will look after your every need. I too had a relationship with someone who I had nothing intellectually in common with – he was young, funny, unthreatening, thin, neat and looked after me – it was absolute bliss! He wasn’t challenging in the least and after a hard day at the office it was the perfect tonic. So just like a lot of farang men on here I don’t like their suited and booted claptrap – it bores the pants off me – jabbering into his mobile, eating burgers, sell sell sell – meetings and boozy lunches – no thanks! But the only difference I suppose is I I don’t have to pay 1000 baht for it – it’s free!
Trudie,
I have to assume that either you’re filtering a bit or not being completely honest. Even most women would laugh at the statement “I haven’t met that many women who hate other women.” Women are catty. Women are always comparing themselves to each other and always seem to have a catty statement for women who they think that they’re better than.
“Western men don’t allow western women to be feminine- most western men seem to either want a girl who looks up to him and won’t compete or they want a woman with money who will take care of them.”
Please. If women acted feminine most men would be in seventh heaven. Have you ever hung out in a bar in NYC, LA, LON, or any other major city and heard women who have mouths that would embarrass a sailor. It’s not about women being allowed to be feminine but the fact that women are becoming less and less feminine.
“I do understand farang’s excitement at realising there is a breed of woman who laughs at all your jokes, is stick thin and will look after your every need.”
No Trudie, it’s not about that. You seem to be caught up in this whole “man’s world” thing. And from a man’s perspective it’s anything but. Men live in a world where in which to have any chance to even hope of hooking up with a woman they have to risk extreme humiliation. You asked why women aren’t “allowed” to be feminine well who’s forcing them to say “Fuck off asshole” when a guy walks up and says “Hi, I was wondering if I could buy you a drink.”
That’s what guys see. They see every interaction with a female as a potentially emasculating experience. Some get numb to it and those are the assholes you are probably talking about. They just say “Fuck it. They don’t care about my feelings why should I treat her any better than a common whore?”
If you did read my other post you’ll note that a key theme in there is that Asian women are simply more polite about it. If they have no interest they will be coy or act too shy to give out their phone number. Most would never be overtly rude and confrontational. That is what men like about Thai women. The fact that when treated with respect the guy will also be treated with respect.
You came into this thread saying you didn’t pre-judge but your last statement says a lot about what you have going on in your head.
You need to hang out with more intelligent women. I actually find that women are a lot more supportive of each other than men are of each other. I know what you are saying about women being competitive with each other – I usually know I look good when the women’s mouths are open more than the mens. I have to say that I don’t say catty things about other women and none of my friends do either. I know some women do but it isn’t all women and when the chips are down women are there for each other to listen to each other droning on about what the sub text was of some random comment a man made.
I find that men want to have the upper hand – the power if you like – they like you to act girly and silly but not many men actually are strong and masterful enough to really respond to a real woman acting feminine. And I’m not talking about in a bar either – I’m talking about one on one. I am completely feminine but I still find men get their boxers in a twist about the fact that I am more intelligent possibly than them or stronger in some way. It is a subject that bores me. I prefer dating men who don’t give a shit about trying to act intellectually superior.
And I think I can see your problem – you are meeting catty women at the wrong bars. Most of the women I know wonder why men are so timid about approaching them.
I think men like more than the fact that Thai women politely turn them down don’t you???? After another week of seeing ancient farang men with young Thai beauties I still come down to the basic fact that this is an in it for what you can get scenario. Fair dos but some of us want a different type of relationship.
Men have been feeling weak and emasculated by themselves and by women from the year dot. I’m guessing that’s possibly why it is men, not women who commit rapes. I am guessing that is why it is men, not women who go around killing each other. I suppose that is why men, not women, can’t talk about their feelings. And before you jump on this – I am not saying all men are raping murdering bastards. I am just saying that there are less women who rape and murder. Now why is that? Men have had the upper hand with women for far too long and now that women are realising that men are right – it is far better to go out, have a good time and sleep with a gorgeous body, they are fast realising that there is more to life than a night in cooking his tea. And like the emotionally developed souls they are, men are throwing their toys out the pram and blaming women as they’re left floudering with their own inadequecies. The women who are telling you to ‘fuck off’ are in a way saying ‘diddums’ Women have known what it’s like to lose their identity. Maybe some of the things you are seeing should bring out the feminist in you eh?
And just for the record, despite being a bright, attractive woman I can’t remember the last time a man offered to buy me a drink – so maybe you are right that they are not doing that any more. All my single friends wonder why no men will approach them and they’re all lovely good looking women. The only time men approach is often when they are drunk out of their minds and they rub themselves against you in a club. Maybe I’m going to the wrong places too eh?
Well I hope that my thread did say a lot about what is going on in my head or else it would be pretty pointless.I don’t pre-judge about what I think about women in Thailand who are financially and socially in a weaker position sleeping with older Western men who are paying for love. I’m not so sure what I think about that. I suppose I’d like to see Thai women having better options possibly.
I do have opinions though and some pretty strong ones you will have noticed.
Trudie,
I just don’t get you. Seriously. You automatically assume things about me that you could have no way of knowing. One of my last serious farang girlfriends was a Harvard grad and VP at a film studio. I have dated women who are strippers and women who are VP’s at Fortune 500 companies. I have no problem whatsoever dating beautiful and smart women. I even have no problem if they make more than I do.
What this is about is what I prefer. I prefer the Thai approach to relationships. Not because I don’t want to get my boxers in a twist by being challenged by a woman but because I prefer to be with a woman who isn’t so insecure that if she is smarter she needs to flaunt it in my face.
Notice a running theme throughout your posts? You keep talking about relationships being a struggle for one or the other to be superior. I prefer the Thai way which just appreciates that both parties bring different things to the relationship. There is no attempt to
No, you are not going to bring out the feminist in me. I don’t have any desire to be a feminist. Feminism implies a struggle between the sexes and that is exactly what men are reacting to. I don’t want someone who’s so pre-occupied with the fight for superiority that she can’t appreciate and contribute to the relationship. I prefer not to date women who look at every word or action and see it as a potential insult to their womanhood.
And I think you get it wrong in that we’re blaming anything on anybody. As I have said previously, I prefer Asian women. I specifically prefer Thai women. That is my choice. I have dated many quality women in the US and Europe and the women who make me feel the most loved are the Thai. Hands down. Farang women don’t even rate a close second. I don’t blame farang women for that. That is just how I see the world.
Sorry,
Billy
I was trying to talk about the subject in a wider sense. You keep talking about yourself. Good for you if you prefer Thai girls and seems strange that you have dated strippers and fortune 500 women – what about women in between – like most of them????
Your response kind of closes the subject as you have failed to grasp onto some of the wider implications and reasons behind some of this blaming of women which has come out on some of these posts.
Men might be reacting to a struggle but don’t men create that struggle. As I have said I can understand why you don’t want to be challenged in the way that you see western women acting but I have to say that men brought that on themselves to a certain degree by treating women like shit.
You don’t have to be sorry for your taste in women. As I keep saying I too look for gentleness and kindness in a partner. It is rare coming from western men too so I guess in a roundabout way you now know what women have felt for years – except you guys are lucky now because you can wave your wallets and the women come flocking. And you can tell me a million times that it isn’t about this but I haven’t seen a lot of evidence to suggest otherwise and I came out here thinking that maybe it wasn’t as simple as money but do you know what it sort of is. Not being critical just a statement of what is staring me in the face.
what about women in between – like most of them????
That assumption is built in.
you have failed to grasp onto some of the wider implications
Yes, you have failed to convert me into a feminist. I hope this really does close the subject for you and you move onto ThaiVisa or some other site.
Men might be reacting to a struggle but don’t men create that struggle.
You’ve obviously never head of the phrase it takes two to tango. There’s a struggle because both sides are fighting.
And you can tell me a million times that it isn’t about this but I haven’t seen a lot of evidence to suggest otherwise and I came out here thinking that maybe it wasn’t as simple as money but do you know what it sort of is.
Unlike Farangland where beautiful, attractive, and intelligent women never date ugly guys with lots of money.
You make less and less sense in each post.
And now for something completely different!
I stumbled across this blog because I have a male (Western) friend who is moving to Thailand because of its beauty – and, I think, because he feels that he’ll be able to get laid by pretty Thai prostitutes without any demands or complications. He seems to loathe any woman who caters to him in the least. The more distant (and almost indifferent) the woman is, the better.
The interesting thing is that I am a Western woman who would be only too happy to cater to a Western guy – not every moment of the day and night (that would be pretty cloying), but doing nice, pampering things is, I think, wonderful . When I read about the woman who washed her husband’s feet, I thought “what a great idea”. Sadly, most Western men I’ve met would be completely put off by that kind of gesture, interpreting it as being “smothered” by the woman. Fortunately, I have recently (finally!) found a Western guy who likes that kind of thing. Now I have to focus on finding kind things to do for him (I’ve almost forgotten how!), and the foot-washing is a great idea – thanks!!
Sally,
Don’t feel like you have to come up with new things. A guy will know when you appreciate him for who he is.
As I tried to explain, unsuccessfully, to Trudie, guys just want to feel like we’re getting a fair deal. When a guy is the primary earner and his wife expects to be treated as an equal when she earns half what he does it creates friction in the realationship.
I don’t mean to sound like as ass but when I’m earning twice what my partner is earning I really don’t care for her to spend two hours telling me how hard her day was. I want to decompress. Guys just want to feel appreciated for bringing home the bulk of the family salary.
If the woman is bringing down the bulk of the money then I think the guy should be kissing her ass. Likewise if the guy is bringing in the bulk of the shared salary then the women should be treating the guy to some perks when he gets home from a hard day at work.
I don’t mean to sound like if two people are equal one should be subserviant to the other. But if one person in the relationship is putting in more than the other then the other party needs to equal things out.
Sally, you sound like the true gem that most guys would be falling all over to meet. Unfortunately you’re in the minority in terms of Western women. Guys like Thai women because your attitude is the norm for Thai women. In Farangland it’s the exception.
Your friend may well be moving to Thailand to bang prostitutes. On the other hand he might be moving to Thailand because he enjoys the equality that Thai women offer. There’s a very fine line at times and it’s hard to tell what guys really appreciate about Thai women.
I wish you lots of luck in your current relationship. I hope your man appreaciates what you do for him. If not, give me a ping because I would love to meet a Western woman who is as open minded as yourself
Billy
seems like the vast majority of western men in thailand have women from low end of thai society. am told by thai men they do not find most of these these women attractive from either physical or intellectual(LOL) perspective.
where else in the world could “jackie gleason with tattoos” hear “hello handsome man” repeatedly????
anyway “to each his/her own” as the saying goes.
Since you mention “inellectual(LOL) perspective”:
One thing to wonder about is why anyone would concern themselves with who the Thai men you have talked to believe are the “low end” of Thai society.
Essentially the idea you’re quoting is a form of racism that is based on classifying the people of Isaan as ‘inferior’ based largely on the regional history of SE Asia, the shade of their skin and the fact that their primary occupation is farming. These ideas were debunked in most places in the world early in the last century. I’m surprised that anyone would parade them publicly as a legitimate point of view in this age.
I might as well ask why some southern men insist on dating “ignorant niggers” in the United States instead of “decent white women”.
Do you think the ideas of the Thai men you hold out as your authority is any less ignorant or offensive?
Bravo WW
yes, dv there is a lot of prejudice and social structures in place in Thailand – like everywhere else really. People come here and think it is just the rich farangs and the poor Thais – believe me it isn’t – there are some seriousy seriously weatlthy Thais. I don’t remember you mentioning Issan though – but seems WW has provided that stereotype for us all anwyway. Yes, the bar girls tend to be from poorer backgrounds and have pretty much no education.Like the bar boys the come from Issan mainly. Many of the middle class Thai girls don’t even know they exist there is such a divide. What you’re probably seeing is a lot of Western men with girlfriends who look like bar girls – you do see some middle class girls with Western men but not as many and they move in different circles. They don’t hang out with their man at the ex-pat bars. Many higher class girls talk about wanting a farang man – they want to live in the US or Australia – not so much England – but they wouldn’t just go with a man because he was a farang. I too have noticed and I’m just being honest here that many of the Thai girls who are with the older Western men look like prostitutes – in the way they dress and yes, you can tell from their looks that they are from the poorer backgrounds. The reality is that most of these women are after the money – the genuine relationships if you like to call it that are really easy to spot – the women don’t act as desperate around the man – next time you see an older Western guy with a much younger Thai watch how bored she looks when he’s not looking. There is a call girl nature there even when they’re hitched sometimes.
Many of the Issan who are far better looking in my view than the paler Thais are really interested in farang women and although I wouldn’t class myself in any way racist I think you do have to be wary. There is such a difference in income, education and culture that all is not what it seems and you can get yourself into difficulties. Yes, the Thai men sleep with the bar girls as well but no, you wouldn’t get a hi-so Thai man marrying an Issan girl – highly unlikely – they are far more snobby than any farang when it comes to that sort of thing. But at the end of the day, many of these girls are lovely and it is not their fault they are not educated and come from such basic backgrounds. The Thai men from what I hear tend to have a few girls on the go at the same time. Thai women never ever say anything positive about Thai men. A lot of Thai women like the farang sense of humour and the women speak better english. The Thai men tend to grow up very very late.
Sally, you’re so right – I think it was me that mentioned the washing the feet thing – do you know I mentioned it to my ex – english guy and he just didn’t know what I was talking about – I have also found that if you show a farang guy any sort of kindness they instantly think you are too into them – I have found men have even been uncomfortable with things that I would do for a close girlfriend or family member – I’m glad you’ve met someone you can just relax with like that – I had it as well for years.
BB – oh dear – how many times – women enjoy pampering and looking after their man but yes, they do want it back in return – your comments were really revealing though – is money the only factor – you talk about someone putting more into a relationship – is money it then?? Perks are something you get at work. A relationship is about mutual trust and acceptance and understanding and passion and compassion – it isn’t a constant set menu – unlike the massage places – it is about giving and taking. If you have a loving partner then of course they are going to appreciate your hard work and the fact that you are a breadwinner but love isn’t actually about expectation and duty. As well as getting into the Thai women you want to get into the real cultural and philosophical reasons behind some of the behaviour you like about Asia. I don’t think anyone should kiss anyone’s ass in a relationship and I really feel for you if that is how you think about love and life. What a shame – really.
First off my heroes include nelson mandela, mlk, ghandi and even some white people. more recently i was quite touched by mr obama winning the us presidency. finally the dream, the idea behind the inception of the USA has blossomed.
I asked a Thai male friend about the idea of living with a entertainment girl from pattaya. the thai male is also of “color” however completed university and if i recall maybe a masters also, and is hard working with a successful business.
the reply was that thai men do not find those girls attractive. I imagine that this applies to thai guys with some education. in actuality you rarely see thai men(any thai men) as patrons in entertainment venues frequented by westerners. my friend elaborated by saying thai men are weary of the stories the thai farang entertainment girls create aimed at gaining sympathy and money.
realistically a very high % of western males live in areas populated with entertainment venues, including an entire city.
maybe i am deaf, dumb and blind, but it doesn’t seem like many of those girls have much in the way of basic personal development, hobbies, playing a musical instrument, reading….. some of them are very nice, friendly, big smile, but the smile and friendliness is BUSINESS. the bottom line is financial. there does not seem to be an overwhelming preponderance of girls with some type of plan or goal. just live for today. there are tons of people from issan that are motivated, reliable, and hold jobs in other areas outside of the entertainment business. issan has universities.
am i racist if sure seems like a high % of those girls lack the degree of reliability to show up on time if show up at all at a mainstream job?
am i racist if by observation many of them cannot speak without yelling, are often rude.
the concept of societal drift seems to be at work.
==============================================================
Since you mention “inellectual(LOL) perspective”:
One thing to wonder about is why anyone would concern themselves with who the Thai men you have talked to believe are the “low end” of Thai society.
Essentially the idea you’re quoting is a form of racism that is based on classifying the people of Isaan as ‘inferior’ based largely on the regional history of SE Asia, the shade of their skin and the fact that their primary occupation is farming. These ideas were debunked in most places in the world early in the last century. I’m surprised that anyone would parade them publicly as a legitimate point of view in this age.
I might as well ask why some southern men insist on dating “ignorant niggers” in the United States instead of “decent white women”.
Do you think the ideas of the Thai men you hold out as your authority is any less ignorant or offensive?
DV,
While I can sympathize with your point it is indeed racist. It’s really hard to talk about Thais without making some generalizations so I can agree with some of what you say on a very general level and strongly disagree with other parts.
An educated Thai would never date or marry a Thai working girl because in Thai society it would be suicide. Bye bye promotion, your family would disown you, etc. That’s not to say that he might not have a regular stable of whores on the side or a mia noi but as is the Thai way, it’s not what you do, it’s what you do in public.
And, I think it’s a well known that many upper and middle class Thais see people from Isaan as being inferior. Their beliefs – as WW pointed out – are just as uneducated, racist, and bigoted as someone who thinks blacks are niggers.
So, your Thai friend’s view is not surprising. In fact, I would be surprised if he had said something different. But being Thai doesn’t make him right.
Now, you’ve specifically focused on the topic of “entertainment” girls. Well, dude, you’re talking about whores. Sorry, I hate to use such a demeaning term but I think we need to get it out in the open so we can really examine what your argument is. So then, are you saying that crack whores in Farangland are much more aspirational than Thai whores? Ahh yes, I remember that window prostitute in Amsterdam telling me about her musical training just before she sucked my cock. What an absurd argument.
And a lot of what you’re attributing to “those girls” actually applies to many Thais. Try scheduling an appointment with a Thai person and see if they show up on time. Perhaps the percentage is higher than for bar girls but it’s not a flaw exclusive to bar girls.
Likewise I think you’ll find it a general observation that Thais – regardless of level of education – lack what we in the west would term intellectual curiosity. Yes, there are some brilliant, educated Thai people out there but I challenge you to hang out in a business district in Bangkok and ask people how many books they’ve read in the last year that were not required reading as part of their job.
I’ve dated quite a few educated Thai women and only a small percent can even discuss Thai politics. I actually know the names of more Thai politicians than many of the Thai women I’ve dated. When I was in BKK last Dec during the elections I mentioned to one girl (who had a masters degree) that the bars were closed for the elections. She didn’t even know there were elections going on!!!
So again, you’re putting these negative attributes on only Thai whores when many are simply cultural issues shared by most Thais.
But what it then comes down to is are they even negative attributes? If I ever dated a farang woman who’s played an instrument I’m unaware of it. I’m sure some did but there wasn’t a violin in the house or a grand piano in the living room. They certainly weren’t serious in their study of it. How is that person better or worse than a Thai who’s never learned to play an instrument? Same same.
And while many Thais lack intellectual curiosity not all do. I have Thai friends who are very clued into Thai politics. They are well read and have traveled. They constantly quiz me on things going on in the US and Europe to get a farang perspective.
But even then, I actually find a certain level of admiration for someone happy living in the now. I won’t say that I don’t sometimes find it frustrating but they’re a lot happier than I am so maybe I’m the one doing it wrong
And it is simplicity that often draws me to them. You say “just live for today” but isn’t that what a lot of self-help books recommend as a path to happiness?
And you mention hobbies but I think you may be missing out on something. I think farang culture pushes hobbies as being a key focal point of your life where I see Thai women with hobbies but it’s less at the forefront. For instance, I have female Thai friends who draw, take language classes (for no business reason – just an interest in learning something new), cook like world class chefs, golf, scuba dive, play chess, etc. And that was just the first few people who popped into my head. Having a hobby doesn’t mean you have to have a bumper sticker on your car that says “I heart _____” I think western culture says that your hobby has to borderline on obsession for it to be a real hobby. You can’t just golf, you have to get the golf coffee mug, the stupid desktop paperweight, and constantly talk about how you wish you had more time for it. I just don’t think Thais get that serious about their hobbies. They have them; they’re just not fanatical about them like we are.
In terms of goals, again I think you may not be seeing the big picture here. Especially when it comes to Isaan girls they may have goals but they may be much more modest than you’re used to. If you’re some Isaan girl who’s parents have slaved away under the baking sun for 40 years harvesting rice your goal in life might be not to have to do that yourself. You goal might be to have a life where you don’t live harvest to harvest or paycheck to paycheck. In such a family oriented and traditional culture one of your goals might be to be a good wife and mother. Maybe like many of the original immigrants to the US it’s more important to give your children a better life than it is to pursue your own dreams.
In terms of bar girls . . . most have goals. Again, they are modest by western standards but most do have goals. I think the most frequent ones you hear is to make enough money to be able to buy some land and build a house back in their hometown. Doesn’t sound like much considering how inexpensive it is to buy and build in Isaan but like I said . . . from where she started this would be a major move up life’s ladder.
Now, getting back to the whores . . . yes, many are rude. Very rude. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen any start off that way. I’ve watched them become that way after years of working the go-gos but most are shy and quiet when they first start out. It’s the years of living your life in a smoke filled room, drinking every night, and having drunk farangs grabbing at your tits and ass all night that turns many of these girls into that rude, obnoxious fuck that you wish would leave you alone.
Can you expect anything else? As much as we all like to think of ourselves as good upstanding people try hanging out in Pattaya, Cowboy, Nana, or Patpong for any length of time. See what kinds of scumbags travel from all ends of the earth to come there.
I remember reading on Stickman’s site a user submission from a guy who wrote a guide on how to rip off bar girls. I mean this guy was stealing cash out of their purse while they showered, ditching them in restaurants after having sex without paying, and on and on. The guy sent these “tips” to Stickman because he thought other guys should be doing the same. The guy happened to be on the run from the law back in Canada for running an employment agency scam where he got girls to pay him to help them find work and then he just took their money and skipped town.
These are the kind of people these bar girls deal with every day. I can’t say I blame them when they become hardened. They’re dealing with some of the scum of the earth so their world view is going to get pretty distorted. Any girl who didn’t harden would get eaten up.
Or what about the girl who some guy strung along for a year while the entire time he had a wife and kids he had no intention leaving? How many times do you think you would allow yourself to get fucked over before you thought it was your turn to do the fucking over? They may be uneducated but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that guys are using you and you can either allow yourself to be used or you can strike back and use them and their desire to have sex with you to make a better life for yourself.
Or better yet, just the other night I was at a go-go on Cowboy and one of the customers got up and left without paying. His hostess got stuck for a 500 baht bill. Yeah, there’s a reason why she doesn’t see anything wrong with sticking you for a drink you didn’t order. In her mind it’s just making up for the times she got stiffed and had to come up with the cash out of her own pocket.
Don’t get me wrong though. I’m not suggesting that their behavior is acceptable. It’s that it’s predictable. I don’t think that the girl that suckers a bunch of guys into sending her money is a bad person. That’s just the reality of her world. And yes, I’ve actually known some of these gals well enough that they’ve shared with me how and why they do what they do.
And lastly, I only did a quick re-read of the comments in this thread but this article was about why farang guys like Thai women. It was not about why farang guys like Thai prostitutes. I’m not sure how you got onto the topic of prostitutes but that was not the topic I started off writing about.
Well Billy BKK,
By the looks of your writing you are certainly impassioned by what you write, and well knowledgeable.
now if you personally are dating a mainstream girl you are among the apparent tiny minority of western guys living in thailand.
my initial comments relate to what is glaringly clear in bkk and in the “city” that the sex business built, starts with a “P” can you guess? and i believe what i have noted basically throughout Thailand to be more of the same.
as far as bar girl goals i can see your point, although they complain about all the reason why they never have money. sick relatives, etc etc etc. let me ask you this. those girls and generations of girls like them have their native language, property ownership and wide open business rights.
yet, bonafide poor uneducated immigrants from china arrive in thailand without speaking the language, and somehow manage to not only survive, but achieve considerable success and have you ever seen recent immigrant chinese girls at expat bars?
please do not counter with allegations of racism. what i have stated seems to be simple fact.
if i acknowledge that in this world there exists no shortage of “white trash” would you label me racist?
come on, do you think the vast majority of expats came to thailand to date mainstream girls???
would it surprise you to learn mainstream girls are quite conservative and can be sexually repressed, barring the ones that spent time abroad, etc. the bar girls don’t seem sexually sophisticated either. much of bar girl-customer relations seem more akin to animal husbandry.
sorry to say i have rarely seen a western guy with a thai girl that didn’t appear to be in the “entertainment” business. I’m not saying it does not exist, just well hidden.
you refer to prostitutes in other countries but it sure seems that the dimensions of prostitution in thailand are huge. it is an “industry”
so you don’t think a girl that suckers multiple guys into sending her money is a bad person? some would argue “criminality” but since she might have a nice smile when she says “hello handsome man” it is not so bad.
to a certain degree the girls become the environment they are in. when your friends are seasoned scammers it just might rub off on you
i say to each their own. the apparent overwhelming majority of “handsome sophisticated men” may be quite happy and kudos to them. it probably? beats being somewhere in europe or usa and dating women of similar status and appearance
DV,
I’m sorry, but I have a serious problem with this:
would it surprise you to learn mainstream girls are quite conservative and can be sexually repressed, barring the ones that spent time abroad, etc. the bar girls don’t seem sexually sophisticated either.
The problem is that this is so ill informed that I have to believe that your overall knowledge on this subject is highly inaccurate.
What you wrote may have been true 20 or 30 years ago or it might apply to some very old fashioned girls of today but otherwise it’s bullshit. The same websites you read that on would also tell you that Thais don’t hold hands, kiss, or show any sort of public display of affection in public. I think sitting for 20 minutes in any of the big shopping centers would completely dispel that myth. And going out to a proper nightclub would not only kill but bury any notion that Thais don’t do public displays of affection. Granted, they’re still conservative by western standards and there are some girls who are still old fashioned but your average Thai girl in her 20′s or 30′s is more western than what you describe.
And in terms of sexually repressed . . . I’ve never asked a girl to come back to my place with me. It’s always been her suggestion. Sure she might try to be coy about it but no girl wants to seem like a slut. Thai or farang, they always want to have the “it just happened” excuse.
In terms of performance in bed; no complaints. Obviously some are going to be more experienced and/or enthusiastic than others but I’ve never had a girl starfish on me which is a compliment I cannot give to some bar girls. Some have been truly fantastic lovers and I rank them up there as some of my best experiences in bed.
I think the crux of our disagreement or different points of view is that you sound like your world-view of Thailand is shaped 100% by what you see (or have seen) in Pattaya. Within the microcosm of Pattaya some of the things you say hold true due to the fact that Pattaya has become the world-wide capital for sexpats and the women who are drawn to them. So doesn’t it seem silly to look at that microcosm and try to ask where all of the marriage-minded farangs are? Doesn’t it seem equally as futile to try to find the nice, mainstream Thai girl? Your average guy who wants to come and live in Thailand, make a decent salary, and meet a nice girl here isn’t going to live in Pattaya. Likewise, what kind of work is there for a girl in Pattaya other than working in the bars?
So sorry to sound dismissive but I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make. You seem to be bent on not seeming racist while making generalizations on topics you don’t seem to know much about.
Get your ass out of Pattaya and go meet some nice, mainstream girls and see if you have the same attitude. There are some really nice ladies out there if you’re willing to put in the time and effort to treat them nicely.
Billy
You injected “Issan” into the discussion then labeled my statements as “racist” I then added some of my personal convictions about people as related to race. Now you say I am “bent on not seeming racist” So is my problem
1) I am a racist.
or
2) I am a racist obsessed with not seeming like one
3) Maybe not a racist
I only make a mention to Pattaya. Although you ignored it, I also said my observation throughout other areas (BKK including numerous neighborhoods away from Sukhumvit/Nana/Silom entertainment)One or twice I saw a wesertn guy with a girl that did not appear to be from the “entertainment venue” However, on numerous occasions I see western males with “bar girl looking” companionship at Central World, Siam Paragon, Emporium, MBK, Lat Prao Mall, and other upscale non western locales.
From your posts it seems you are in what seems to be the small minority or westerners that go out with mainstream girls.
Your reference to a night club where affection may be observed is not a public place. It is a few hours in a synthetic private environment with alcohol.
The % of thai couples that hold hands is significantly low, not that it matters. It certainly does not matter to me.
It’s always been her suggestion. Sure she might try to be coy about it but no girl wants to seem like a slut.
That statement seems to contradict itself. No girl wants to seem like a slut, but It’s always been her suggestion.
Would it surprise you if astonishingly my presence in Pattaya is rare, and I have gone out with several girls that include masters and doctorates in addition to plain old bachelor degrees?
Would it surprise you if discussing sexual performance/liaisons on the internet or personally with friends doesn’t “do it for me” nor does using what I consider unnecessary language ie: grabbing at your tits and ass all night that turns many of these girls into that rude, obnoxious fuck
DV,
To be honest, I think I understand your point or objective less with each post. All I know is you have a tendency to make sweeping generalizations and start off a lot of sentences with the phrase “Is it racist . . .”
But let’s just look at what you have said.
Your first comment was quoting a Thai friend who told you how these low-end girls aren’t attractive to Thai men. Oh, and you made the point of putting LOL when referencing their intellectual qualities. Is that racist? Yes.
First, your Thai friend is racist. I know it sounds odd that a Thai could be racist against another Thai but it’s about as easy to understand as how light skinned blacks think dark skinned blacks are inferior. It doesn’t matter if you’re Thai or not, to think that people from Isaan are inferior is racist. And to quote him and agree with him is . . . also racist.
Then when WW called you on it you qualified it by saying he was referencing girls working in the entertainment industry which are about 99% Isaan girls so WW didn’t just throw Isaan into the conversation; you did whether you realize it or not. What both WW and I both picked up on based on what your Thai friend said in your first comment was that he was speaking specifically about Isaan people who are considered low class by many other Thais. That was how you introduced Isaan into the conversation whether you were aware of it or not.
You keep making this like it’s an issue of education but an educated Thai from Isaan is still from Isaan. Your educated Thai friend was probably not of Isaan origin which is why he’s racist against people from Isaan and said they are considered unattractive to Thai people. Again, is that racist? 100% yes!!!
So the best answer I can put together is that your friend is certainly a racist and if you believe what he’s told you then you are as well.
Everything else you’ve said has been pretty much nonsense. Be it the crap about all western/Thai relationships being bar girls or be it the 20 year old notion that Thais don’t hold hands in public and are “sexually repressed.”
I mean, just go onto a dating site like Thai Love Links and there are thousands of women registered on there. Hell, on a good evening there might be 800 or more online at any one time. I would say out of that a very small percentage have ever worked in the entertainment industry. Yet there they are, trying to meet a farang. And the guys are on there too. Guys looking to meet a nice mainstream girl.
And that’s just one site. There are tons of others. Tagged, Hi5, MySpace, Facebook, Match.com, Thailand Friends, etc, etc, etc. Or go to Thai Visa or Ajarn and talk to all the guys who are married to girls or have girlfriends who have never worked in the entertainment industry. The facts simply don’t support your conclusions.
As to your last item, I don’t care what does it for you. I write what I write and if you don’t like my style of writing or the language I use you have the option not to read it. Sorry, but the entire internet can’t be catered around what does it for you. Maybe you should stick with sites that share your racists views of Isaan women.
Billy
Billy,
Low end men or women of any skin color are (often? usually) not found desirable by men/women of ANY skin color that have greater personal/intellectual development.
I doubt someone with Barack Obama’s background would find much in common dating a woman(any skin color) that decided bypassing basic education and working in a business that tries to get YOUR assets to support her and family members that have learned a “free meal ticket” is the way to go.
I doubt an educated Thai of color would very much be interested in dating a white skin massage girl from the north either.
Let me add, that there are some “entertainment” girls that are very lovely, sweet, genuinely nice people, however, the reason they are in that business (money) is the bottom line, including the so called “freelancers”
This is not racism, this is reality.
If what you say is true (99% bar girls from Issan), why is there such a disproportionately high % from Issan when after all, there is poverty everywhere in Thailand?
Anyway, I have spent time in Issan and there are a great number of people working hard and diligently, studying, etc etc, and they have nothing to do with the scamming mentality that is pervasive in the entertainment industry.
Believe it or not at one point in my life I was a victim of racism.
What I discuss here is not about skin color or origin, its about mentality, lifestyle of some people and clearly not all.
If I applaud and respect and acknowledge the majority of people from Issan that are not scamming, but hard working honest respectable good hearted people but comment realistically on some “entertainment” girls that belong to a subset of population I am racist??????
Do you suggest my arguments albeit based in fact, should be dismissed as invalid, because they are “racist” ?(per your perception)
May I ask what is your racial background?
DV,
No, you may not ask what my race is because it has nothing to do with this conversation. I’m not the one labeling an entire ethnic group as lazy and unintelligent.
I really don’t understand why you feel that you can say any half-assed remark you want and then it’s my job to educate you on things you know nothing about.
Why are 99% of the girls from Isaan? Because only about 10% – 20% of the girls in the prostitution game are involved in Farang/Thai prostitution. The other 80% – 90% service Thais. And, as already been discussed, many Thais are racists and think that the dark brown skin of Isaan girls is grotesque. There is no market for Isaan girls in Thai brothels.
Isaan girls often see marrying a farang as the only way out of their current poverty cycle. They don’t get into prostitution because they want to be whores. They get into prostitution either because they are forced into it (which I’ll explain in a moment) or they are misguided into thinking that it’s a quick path to meeting a nice, rich farang who will marry them and save them.
Many girls end up forced into it by greedy parents or boyfriends/husbands who know it’s easy cash for them. Let’s say a Isaan girl goes to Bangkok to work in a factory or some other low-paying job. Perhaps her parent’s gambling problems or her husband’s refusal to get a job and drinking problems put her in a position where those around her are expecting more money than her job will allow. Being uneducated and seen as on the bottom rung of the societal ladder her only option is to work in the farang bars (Thai brothels would never accept her).
Dude, you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about. You started off making racist and uneducated comments and then have slowly attempted to try to dig yourself out of that hole by downplaying what you intended to say. You cannot write “intellect (LOL)” and then try to say you were talking about a lifestyle. Intelligence is something you are born with or not. So commenting that an entire group of people are not intelligent is racist. Do you need a dictionary to help you define what racism is?
If you wanted to talk ONLY about girls working in the entertainment industry you should have said so. You didn’t.
I can agree that girls working in the entertainment industry share many common personality traits. That would be because they’re a self-selecting group. They made choices that brought them to where they are. I can almost tell a bar girl her own life story based on the first few words that come out of her mouth because they all got to where they are through a similar process.
But that is merely once facet of Isaan people. What about all of the ones who do end up attending university hoping for a better life? What about the ones who stay in the dead-end, low paying jobs because they are happier doing that than going for the quick cash in the farang prostitution option? What about the ones who find a nice Isaan Thai man to marry and have a relatively happy life together?
Here’s a hint for you; if you don’t like being called a racist don’t make racist comments. The internet is already full-up on ignorant jerkoffs who come to Thailand and bang a bunch of hookers and think they know what Thailand and Thai people are about.
Billy
Billy,
Thank you for your most eloquent and intellectually enlightening words.
Something I don’t think you were ever a member of The Harvard Law debating team, or any other for that matter.
Should I acquire a fascination for bar girls I will seek out your wisdom most venerable professor.
I never promised eloquent or intellectually enlightening words.
My Thai sweetie and I were married almost 8 years ago. We met on the net when she was a secretary at a Bangkok legal firm. We were chaperoned by friends and then by her family for months despite the fact that she was 37 years old. That tells you something about the underlying culture here that is very different from the bar scene.
From the first moment we met face to face at the airport I knew that there was a cultural layer that Thai women have that is totally lacking in North American women.
Thai women know who they are. They are secure and far stronger than the farang women who constantly try to show they are the same as men. Thai women are happy to be women.
Many highly educated Thai women will not marry a Thai because of the Thai males’ proclivity for extramarital relationships. Most Thai women are strong enough to decide to live alone rather than marry an unfaithful Thai for security and a home.
Enter farang men who are blown away by the femininity of the Thai women – femininity that they cannot find in North America. Farang men are generally monogamous – culturally anyway. Thai women appreciate this and thus farang men are seen to be more acceptable husbands than Thais.
My advice to all young men: go to Thailand and experience the culture and the femininity of the Thai women. Stay completely away from the bars and the bar scene. If you can make Thai friends or contacts in your profession, do so. If you are perhaps a firefighter back home, come to Thailand and stop by a firehall. You will be welcomed and you will be invited to someone’s home or a party. Your future wife will be there or be someone’s sister or cousin. She will be educated, cultured and will devote herself to the marriage and to supporting everything you do. She will always be calm and a lady. You will always be proud to take her anywhere. Farang men will admire you and farang women will hate you.
Most North American men have no idea of how shortchanged they are by farang women.
Young Man: visit Thailand to find a good wife. Stay out of the bars. Find a nice traditional Thai girl. You will always be happy.
Old Guy,
Thank you for sharing this. I think you are 100% right. Last night I was having a conversation with a Thai friend of mine. She’s seen enough farang/farang relationships that she’s dumbfounded that farang guys even have an interest in farang women. She told me “I think maybe in 10 years, no farang man marry farang lady.” I had to laugh and told her she was wildly over-optimistic but the overall sentiment was dead-on.
I think your description of Thai women as strong enough not to be afraid to be women is so, so on the spot. Many farang women look down on Thai women thinking that they’re weak because they act feminine but they can do it not because they are weak but because they are strong.
Billy
my experiences with mid 30′s educated women open to/ or pursuing western men;
#unless they are high society, affluent, attractive; can be difficult to find a mate from their own culture. it seems this is due to the Thai perception of that age group.(not fair and different from the west view)
# may be seeking significant financial gain albeit university educated. many university grads live from paycheck to paycheck
# some are financial secure already and open minded happy people.
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Re; western women looking down/resenting thai women….
thailand does not seem to be a bastion for physically attractive western women. naturally, an insecure person might resent a more attractive one especially if younger and popular or with a significantly older less physically fit male.
when posters refer to “farang female” what actually do they mean?, as women from Latin America are quite nice, can be feminine, educated and attractive, however are non Asian. re they also “farang”?
Billy,
I have been to Thailand 3 times and will be returning for the fourth time this May. I have spent a total of 7 months of the last year in a half in Asia. I have been through South East Asia, Hong Kong, and my favorite Japan. But most of my time was in Thailand, and it is very dear to me and will forever be in my soul. I envy you who live there and congrats. Stay there do not return home other than family affairs.
Great post, and Trudie you annoy me like most farang women. Look at the debate you had, is it any wonder why someone like me or farangs never approach you for a drink. Billy you brought that on yourself and I commend you for your patience and I would like to say, “mind if I by you a drink, because you need it”. In all fairness I am trying to find middle ground and will say Trudie I can see where your coming from and would normally become defensive and give up with your opinionated points of view. But being converted by Thai culture, Thai women I defend them and there beauty of life. I have seen many different points of view in terms of the way they live and do not feel the need to go into it now. All I can say is you will never understand and live your way because there are good farangs here living the dream.
The dream is this culture, the way the women make a man feel not just in bed but find the way to open that barricaded and shackled heart that once had love in it but bleed dry buy becoming manipulated. Sex and the city is only a late example of the many mind altering effects ( a good book to read is “The Manipulated Man” and it was shockingly written by a woman! She had death threats from the womens feminist movement. But hey women aren’t catty.)
Billy there are many great posts on here and Im finding my way around them and look forward to the discoveries I will experience in my next trip because of this site.
I have more to add but not in the mood to explain myself to farang women, and by the way I hate football and everything about sports including hotdogs. Can’t wait to return as I have daily flashes of not so distant memories. Thai women are stronger, more loving caring, and sense of humor is on a level no farang woman I have been with can even come close to. I choose to love life because I have been to the free world I can smoke and drink where I want. I don’t have to go the Liquor store to by a single beer. One last point about all the farang women except maybe a couple that I have been with… why don’t you know how to cook, I love cooking and I am tired and ashamed of telling my mom she doesn’t know how to cook more meals than me.
Alright, I’m going off topic but so many points to make and I have to go prepare my lunch for work tomorrow.
Munutkangkao
Firstly, intelligence is not simply something you are born with or not, it is developed and sustained through socialization processes including education. That is not to say that a Bachelor or Masters in Thailand is worth anything.
Farang men, since you are so interested in Thai femininity and culture, why not educate yourself on the process of the social construction of gender, on the historical and cultural rationale for Thai femininity as we know it, and on how it maintains a power network where men are able to coerce women into prostitution of various forms on an epic scale. If you do wish to educate yourself on these processes and facts, please do share what your learnt with your girlfriend, while you give her a foot massage.
I grew up in Thailand and return there every year. I have many Thai friends, mainly female, whom I care for dearly. My dream for Thai women is one of liberation far beyond what most Farang men have in mind for these women. If you want to help out poor Thai women, do not pretend for a single instant that you think that going into a gogo bar is the best way to do so – for her. There is a lot that Western women can learn from THai women. Being gentle is one thing. Indeed, from my experience of the West, what girls and women learn there is that you have to be a tough nut to survive, and displaying ‘masculine’ characteristics like leadership and harshness will help. But don’t worry- Thai women are learning from us, too, Farang women. Farang men, the way you think and speak about Thai women so often causes despair in my heart as I wish that our contribution to this beautiful country Thailand would be made of respect, understanding and love. So often you shame the image of the Farang. For those Farang men who have a relationship with a Thai woman based on equality and love – and they are out there – I hope you use wisdom in a direction that will serve Thai women’s interests rather than Farang gogogoers’ interests. And Bob, I’m surprised that, as you are surrounded by so many strong Thai women it seems, you can’t find any willing to contribute their ideas to this debate. Their voice is badly missing. In peace, S.
“Thai femininity as we know it, and on how it maintains a power network where men are able to coerce women into prostitution of various forms on an epic scale.”
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Anyone coercing someone else into prostitution is a travesty. This goes for the mothers/aunts/families as well as the “men”.
This also applies to the “female” friends that try to make money off of selling their girlfriend.
For Munutkangkao,
My dear,
I must say I’m very impressed with your possitive views about life in Thailand and your statement “farangs living a dream” here. You may ask some other farangs who are living here for more then 7 months how will they define the “paradise”, then you will get another point of view. Living here as farang is not easy and definettly not a dream unelss you come here for holiday and spend tones of money. You get cheated at every corner if you are not aware. Did you know the 2 price schema? farang 200 THB Thai 100 THB., Getting a work permit or even a long stay visa it requires tremendous paper work, birbe,and most of all the ability to understand how and in which way not to make yourself a fool when you say things straigt. Thais don’t like to loose face!… and the list of “benefits” in so called “Thai paradise” can continue… Ohh yes I forgot to mention the “Land of Smile”. I wonder if you ever discovered the truth behind the smile of some Thai people. I mentioned “some” not all of course! Did you also learned the meaning of “Up To You” ? I hope so! As per the Thai girls guess what? There are good girls and bad girls like everywhere in the world! Those who has education and earn a decent living will strive to attain the same values as a farang women. Degnity, independence, and self respect.(for the simple fact that she is not depended on a man who provides). As a matter of fact many Thai woman our days are divorcing their Thai or Farang husbands as they have woke up and embraced the same values as farang woman. A healty relation between 2 persons(regardless Thai or Farang)is based on love, sharing commun values, interest and mutual respect. I’m sorry to tell you but most of the relations I have seen here in Thailand, between Thai woman and farangs are based on Income … How much can he ” The ATM machine” would provide… The rest is “UP to You Ka”… Mai Pen Rai…. And even worst… many farang families who moved to Thailand for work or business, has been distroyed by the nice serving and obediant Thai girls (Bad girls)who are very confortable with the status of “Mea Noi” (second wife)as long as the money are flowing into their bank account. Oh you may say it was the farang wife fault that she did not “care” her husband!!!! Think one more time. She did and she followed him with kids to make him happy and keep family together, living the western confort (which many Thai grils would like to have)for fulfiling his dreams. My conculsion is that there are no diffrences between God Thai girls and farang girls. Nevertheless there are enough Thai bad girls with low education and with big need of fiancials to support their family up contry. Those will always compromise on the moral values, not becuase they really want to, but because they have too since they are forced by the financial situation to take care of their family and maybe kids upcountry.
@gma: Wow, thanks for attempting to include every possible negative stereotype of Thais and Thailand as you could in one comment.
gma,
good response and to let u know I’m not shallow to some of things you have mentioned about Thailand. I know finances play a big part in many Thai girls way of life and who they want to be with. I have had an experience such as that and I did give some money but we did have something genuine and I have no regrets, I tried to help, make it work, but it did not. I don’t look for that one and only girl to be with as I have had enough of those shallow relationships in my western world. Girls here are spoiled and thats fine, live and let live. I have no interest or desire to pursue here and enjoy reading, working than to be in a western relationship I do not want to be a part of.
When in Thailand I’m happy not ignorant I make real contacts even if they go no where or are just a 30 min conversation. For me its different here and feels like a home. I Thank God I never got married or I would not have had the new look on life that Asia has given me. Yes, things can be tuff in Thailand and its not an easy place to live but its a great part of the world, I hate it when I’m talking to western girls and if a conversation about travel comes up and I mention anything about Thailand or Asia that touch of judgement runs into there mind. Stereo Typing me because I’m white; I’m in my 30′s and no slouch and have my girl buddies wanting to set me up here and I tell them they will be disappointed don’t bother (I’m reading a book, ha) With that said I’m glad I have an attraction to Asian girls; the good ones that is and there is always good in even the bad ones.
@admin
Please don’t take my comment in a wrong way. Of course I can say many good things about Thailand as well. I’m living here for more than 9 years and believe me I have seen everything.
Coming back to the Subject ” Why farang man like Thai girls and hate farang woman” the answer is very simple. Man likes to dominate the relation, and here they have found the woman who obey and “execute” whatever they ask since he is the provider. So it is much comfortable to have a woman to wash your feed and keep quiet and smile to you, instead farang wife to whom you have to give an explanation, why, where, with whom, etc… Asian cultures (not only Thailand) teach woman to be obedient and “Niep” (quiet) with their man. They have to endure whatever the man does, as long as they are depended of him…. The best example here is the widely acceptance of a Thai wife for her man having 2-3 wife’s…. Not to mention how proud that man is and actually give him even a higher social status as he has the money to sustain 3 wife’s …:D. Unfortunately you can find this everywhere in Asia.
And guess what? I have seen many Farang man embracing the “habit” even if they already have one Thai wife…
Luckily new generations of Asian woman starts to wake up and does not accept everything anymore…
Hope things will change for the better and improve the Thai woman social status and condition.
gma,
(Hope things will change for the better and improve the Thai woman social status and condition). – I agree with u.
If I can ask you about the your point; “Why Farang man like Thai girls and hate farang women”, and the parallels I wish to make notice of. In your answer’s you refer to, ‘Man likes to dominate, have women obey and execute whatever they ask as being provider. Wash feet, keep quiet, and smile’. Where farang women do not put up with that.
Well, I can see what your trying to say, but you are speaking of a narrow minded small part of the ultra rich male society. Not all males are like that, rich or not. Its sad but true as it does happen. But we must stick to the point were making here. You can argue or debate those issues you raised until your blue in the face and I can do the same with money hungry women who pursue and encourage this lifestyle. If you have a raised eyebrow at this point calm yourself and continue on. I have seen women who only want a man for money and nothing else will stop them because of the great pursuit of materialism and not love. I see it here in Canada all the time. I have a secure job pension and large savings. I’m not rich and definitely not poor, thats why I spend 5 months out of the year in Asia. I certainly don’t wear my money like most guys and gals and this group of people which tend to be the majority in society not matter how low they are on the financial scale endorse this so called “privileged to be with me lifestyle”.
The Farang women are so hard assed at giving a passing greeting or smile its an enigma. I can’t tell you when I use to try and never give in, to believe this snobby, stuck up image that has infected the farang beast of women because I always thought it wasn’t all. But I have and many years now I have turned my back and interest on them and unfortunately yes, probably the one that I could have had a chance with. I have no regrets or time, I have a life to live and things I want to do besides monger after them that will leave plenty a so called man pussy whip and obedient (not all but majority). No thanks.
Point was proven yesterday walking home from the coffee shop with my brother while he was on his cell. A very classy styled Asian girl walking towards us in the opposite direction. I noticed her kept my head up move a step to the side allowing the middle pass and what did she do? She smiled and said hello…. I returned the gesture with pleasure. My brother on the cell, “did you see that she smiled at you”. I felt good, noticed. Now I know she is Farang, living in this part of the world I call the great western myth, but I want to tell you I have done this many times before with other women mainly white and I never got such a response and that is also what my brother was referring too. So, in most of my days of the present, I don’t give up my side of the walk for a white woman, or hold a door open, allow them a seat on the bus, give them a pass to be before me in any line for any place. But please be aware this has to do with the white woman that is around my age (hard to tell at times because they do not age gracefully) but with older women I have to complaints or regrets to be a gentlemen.
If I can suggest to you the next time a white farang women brings up the topic about Asian culture and the point about mens interest because of the “obedience, domination’. Ask her if she is stereotyping the Asian culture of tradition and tainting it with her racial prejudice?
Yes men can feel good about being treated like a man it does make them feel dominate but that doesn’t mean they will do that to you, its a man’s honor to protect his love. Equality, can fit into this paradigm.
I am speaking for men that appreciate such kindness and return it with ten fold because they have been given a gift of appreciation that was only heard of in history books.
Todays white farang women is loosing her place in the pecking order to other cultures of women not just asian. They are jealous of most inter racial relationships and use the lowest form of denominator when debating it. DISCRIMINATION. I get that look every time I tell them I have traveled to South East Asia. They are jealous of man’s interest in the Asian culture, beauty and tenderness when being with them. This can be taken as my Opinion but believe me this what is happening to farang men. We are finally waking up to a coffee given to them by women who appreciate them and men are expressing themselves with high praise and reciprocating those simple acts of kindness to bring back respect to the true pursuit of happiness.
Some men will go after 3 wives most women will go after the richest guy they can get.
White farang women run most men into the ground and I tell you its a turn off to see a woman walking two dogs with one collar. Another topic that might want to be discussed is why Farang man prefer sex with Asian women that Farang women. Thats gonna hit another nerve…
@MunutkangKao: I cannot agree more. I have no desire to dominate women. However I do like someone showing the common courtesy of saying “thank you” if you give way to them on the sidewalk or even eye contact and a recognition that I’m another human being.
I don’t think most men like or are comfortable with complete passivity in women. I consider myself on the normal side of the spectrum and I like a woman who has opinions, thoughts, and seeks a fair balance in a relationship. However given the choice between a farang woman who demands respect without first showing any and a passive Thai woman, I have to pick the Thai woman. At least the Thai woman can learn to develop herself more fully in a relationship but once someone is used to unquestioned respect and control it’s difficult (if impossible) for them to go the other direction.
Undoubtedly Thai women do not have the option of developing like that in a Thai/Thai relationship which is why most seem so timid. And I don’t really condone those types of one-sided relationships.
But there is no question that there is something about Thai women that seems to attract men. Anyone who thinks it’s just about the sex, passivity, or income disparities is overlooking the obvious counter-argument that these same conditions can be found all over the world. Central/South America, Eastern Europe, a good chunk of Asia, etc.
As you say MunutkangKao, I find myself doing more for a Thai girlfriend than I ever would for any former farang girlfriend. Reciprocation is something that comes easily and naturally when you don’t feel you’re constantly in a negotiation. You find yourself thinking of ways to make your girlfriend happy simply because you know what she is always thinking about what makes you happy.
Sure, there are some guys who abuse this type of relationship but of all my male farang friends in Thailand I would guess that less than 10% do. Most bend over backwards for their wives/girlfriends. Though I admit that my experiences might be skewed by the fact that I’m very selective about my friends and try to avoid hanging out with people who don’t share similar values as my own.
And yes, the farang women reveal quite a bit when the fangs come out. Look at how disgusted they are at even the mention of a trip to some of these places. Why is one of the first things a farang woman says when debating issues like this is that the guy must be some fat, bald, pathetic loser who couldn’t get a woman back home?
I don’t know where these farang gals hang out but if you actually get away from Sukhumvit and Silom in Bangkok you see a lot of 20-something year old guys with Thai girlfriends. If you go hit the nightclubs on a Friday or Saturday night the old, bald, fat farangs are severely underrepresented.
That’s not to say that there aren’t plenty of old, fat, bald farangs in Thailand with Thai wives and girlfriends but to assume that every guy with a Thai wife or girlfriend fits that particular stereotype is intentionally attempting to stigmatize Thai/farang relationships.
Some interesting observations from people who are clearly convinced of the complete certainty of their arguments.
Having been in a number of relationships – with women from all parts of the world – I say with absolute conviction to all men that, unless you are wanting to have children, there is clearly no sane reason for marrying or entering into a relationship.
You see, men and women are programmed differently. Call it genetic coding, or whatever, but I think it all goes back to the days when we were living in caves and wandering about in loin cloths.
Men are basically free spirits. This all comes from going out with their mates each day to try and run down a Mammoth. There was a spirit of adventure about it. After the kill was made the blokes would drag it back to the cave where the the women would be waiting to skin, butcher and cook it. You see, even from those earliest times women were home bodies, they were the organisers.
Unfortunately, in this modern day and age, women – particularly in the western world – have become just a bit too good at organising. It’s programmed into them from birth and never becomes more evident than when they enter a relationship with a bloke. It’s begins in a small way but eventually they get up a full head of steam and are ever increasingly chipping away at a blokes identity and personal space.
How often have you heard a women say something like “well he’s got a few rough edges but I’ll iron those out in time” or “he’s got a few bad habits but I’ll knock those out of him when we get married”
Unfortunately,for the man, those “rough edges” and “bad habit” are usually the activities that he likes to partake in when he’s still single.
Once he’s committed to the relationship, the organiser in the women comes out in full force:
Where are you going
What time will you be home
I don’t like your mates
I don’t like you drinking
I don’t like you playing sport
I don’t like the clothes you’re wearing
etc…
A lot of this stems from emotional insecurity – why does the man focus his attention on other things besides her. In her mind, if he’s not focusing his complete attention on her, then he mustn’t love her.
Over the years of being worn down by this, a man becomes something he never intended to be in the first place – usually bloody miserable but having to maintain a facade of happiness. He normally works in a job that he doesn’t like just to ensure that he can pay off a mortgage and look after the women and children.
The fact is that in any relationship, it’s the women that usually decide the location and the size of the house they’re going to live in. Most blokes, if they’re on their own, are quite happy with a small condo. Somewhere to dump their gear and have a sleep.
Women, no matter if they’re white, black, orange or purple, have only one thing in mind when finding themselves a mate; mould the mate into an entity that suits their needs.
I live in Thailand, I’m in my fifties and I’m single. I do what I want, when I want and I’m very happy with my lot in life. One more thing, I’ve got a lot more money in the bank than I’d have if I was in a relationship.
“Todays white farang women is loosing her place in the pecking order to other cultures of women not just asian. They are jealous of most inter racial relationships and use the lowest form of denominator when debating it.”
Its not as if all farang women are losing all the sophisticated, handsome, and socially graced normal weight farang men to asia now is it?
Wow..well, there is so much bigotry on here that its hard to pick ones way through it all.
I just stumbled across this via google and was hoping to read something that i havent read before a hundred times over on the various other sites and forums..sadly wasnt to be so.
Only having lived in Thailand for just under 3 years, im no expert. I am a western women in a relationship with a Thai man (for the last couple of years). So, i felt compelled to write something as I get quite tired about reading the negative cliche’s regarding Thai men. My partner is ten years older than me, has his own company, is fun and caring, and considerate. We have our own independent work. We have our ups and downs like any relationship, but its a balanced relationship. And, I am not dating a Thai man because i could not get a western man, in case that one springs up. Im in my 30′s and I take care of my appearance. Im often complimented. But looks are only skin deep. Ive been asked out by western men here, but to be honest, many of the western men living here are not the type of men I would be interested in. Western men here often change. They get inflated egos. Think that everything they say is charming. Im polite to them of course, but I just dont like smarm. Thankfully I know a good number of very nice regular western men too. I find Thai men know how to treat a woman well (im not just talking about dating, as I have only one experience of dating a Thai ). Thai men are not hung up on what they should and shouldnt do. They treat a woman as a woman, and they dont have unrealistic expectations (that a woman should be able to do everything a man can do). They accept simple differences such as that a woman can get emotional/teary. They dont expect that they should understand, they just let a woman be a woman. They also know how to be men and take control (but not be controlling). There are really so many positive things I can say about Thai men. I love to go out and be treated as a women by men. Simple things like a man being helpful. I once bought a large computer printer at a shop. The male assistant would not let me carry it to my car. It was considered normal to not let me do that. In the UK I would be on my own with items much heavier (although I have to say sometimes i would be happily surprised and grateful when a man was a gentleman in the UK, but its not really so normal/common as it is here).
Anyway, i dont wish to get into the debate about why some western men prefer Thai ladies, to be honest it has already been covered so much and there is usually nothing much new to read on the subject. I just wish to make a point that the cliche of “Thai man no good” belongs in the same realm of “All Thai women are prostitutes”. It may also be worth nothing that if a Thai woman says to you that ALL Thai men are no good, then consider that she may just be feeding your ego.
Anyway..i could go on and on, but as i said, so much of this has already been covered, in so many ways, by so many people, many of which have put it far better than I ever could…
So..heres wishing you a good day and a good life.
=]
CM,
Well said. I know that sometimes it can sound like farangs are putting Thai men down but personally I tend to judge each person individually.
But we do get a lot of our knowledge from women since we’re more likely to develop intimate relationships with women over men. And obviously we are curious as to why a woman prefers farang men over Thai men.
I think if all things were equal most Thai women would go for a Thai man. But all things are not equal.
One fact that is hard to overlook though is the fact that if you go onto a site like Thai Love Links, so many women in their early 20′s already have a child. Most of the girls fell in love with a Thai guy, got pregnant, and then either caught him cheating or found themselves in a bad relationship and left him.
So those are the girls we tend to meet. Not all have a child but the story is very similar. So that is the perspective that farang men hear almost universally because the women we tend to meet, date, or even marry all seem to have had the same sort of experience. One of the reasons they venture out into dating farangs is because they’ve already had bad experiences with Thai men and are hoping farang men are different.
So, I’m not sure it’s bigotry as much as it is people talking about a subject from which they have a narrow source of information. Thai women who date farang men tend to have had bad relationships with Thai men so that is what they communicate to their boyfriends/husbands.
Good to hear that you have had a successful relationship with a Thai man. Maybe you could do everyone a favor and share more of your experiences and help educate us so we aren’t just hearing one side of the story.
Ruai.
Great response Ruai, thanks.
I understand that men are often hearing negative reports from a narrow source of information. You mention the young women who had children with men, then were left. But, in countries all over the world you have men who do the same to young women, not just in Thailand. There are a lot of young unmarried mothers around in the UK, but at least they have the cushion of a government benefit allowance. I dont go on to believe all the men in the UK are like that. Its often young irresponsible men, who may or may not develop into more considerate men in the future. But this is a global behaviour, not limited to Thailand.
I think that we all have to remember to be open and less judgemental, particularly if information is coming from one small source. Do you believe everything one newspaper prints? (particularly The Sun! :p) Or one politician? We need a balance, or, at least accept what a person says as most likely a biased view based on their own circumstances. Thats not to say their opinion isnt valid, of course it is! Its just not giving the whole picture.
Actually, I feel quite sad that some Thai women would put down their men so badly. Ive had a few negative experiences with men in my life, but I dont put down a whole nations males because of it. Im also sad that some western men would wish to look down upon all western females too. But, well, its their choice. I certainly dont think about it overly much. Im just too busy getting on with my own life.
As for my relationship..well, what can i say? Its just a regular relationship. We do shopping, we eat, we joke, we bicker from time to time, etc, etc, etc. Having traveled and lived in other countries, ive had interactions with different nationalities and cultures. I stopped seeing people in terms of race a very long time ago. I dont really think of him as a Thai man, I just think of him as a man, who happens to be Thai. Its only when something happens that seems to be very different from my own instinctual way of doing things do i remember that we have cultural differences. I think of my relationship as i would with a man from any culture (even my own). One to learn from, to compromise with, to help and support and nurture.
I think having a relationship with someone outside of your own culture just requires understanding and respect (erm..which again, is the same for any relationship really). But, I think it can get much much trickier if having a relationship with someone where there may be a very large age gap, or large gap in education etc. I think entering into a relationship with someone who is much less educated, much younger, cannot communicate well, AND is from a different culture, then that is not an easy one. Yet, seems to be one of the most common types of Western male/Thai female relationships.
Hmm..anyway…I have to go, have a home to clean and laundry to do (yes, we farang females keep our homes tidy too :p)
CM,
Again, well put.
I did want to comment though that I think what you may have referenced as racism is actually more of a cultural thing. I think of my Thai girlfriends as Thai because there is simply no way you can have a relationship with them and avoid appreciating their Thai culture. And by appreciate I don’t mean that it can’t sometimes be annoying, frustrating, or a lot of other things that end in “ing” but even in their mind they are Thai first and everything else second. I’m not quite sure if that’s a good or bad thing but it is how it is.
Ruai
Am I wrong in thinking the views, beliefs, opinions here are skewed in that much arises from women and men who for some reason or another seek relationships outside of their culture or even country. It seems there is a multitude of western men that went as far as relocating to Thailand with “social life” being a principle factor.
I am just an observer, it is not my intent to criticize or condemn.
I see many happy seeming Thai-Thai couples everywhere I go; Paragon, Esplanade, Emporium, non Western business oriented areas, etc.
I have Thai-Thai married friends and couples also that are great people. One observation regarding happy couples seems to be that both people are from similar socio-economic backgrounds. The reasons for being together unrelated to economic disparity.
thais do have smaller penises than farangs though. does your thai boyfriend satisfy you when you have secks?
lobo
@dv: Well, no matter what group you look at it’s going to be somewhat self-selecting. All guys who are with Thai women find Thai women attractive (not every guy would agree). That’s one self-selection criteria
I see where you’re going with this and somewhat agree on a limited scale but I wouldn’t read that much into it.
Also, I agree with you on the Thai-Thai relationships. Thais don’t tend to date too much up or down from their own socio-economic level. Sure, a really hot girl (hot by Thai standards – white skin, etc) might be able to snag a man a few rungs up the ladder from her but for your normal sort of relationships it seems they both come from very similar socio-economic backgrounds.
However, I do believe that is one of the things that puts so many single women in the farang dating pool. I forget where I read it but there was a significant disparity between men and women who graduate university. Surprisingly for this male dominated society (which is why I remember it) more women graduate from university than men. That means that for an educated woman with a good job there are fewer men to choose from if she is to date within her own socio-economic class. Since farangs are (rightly or often wrongly) assumed to be educated we become viable partners for educated Thai women due to the shortage of similarly equal Thai men.
After just one month, it seems like the authour has a different take on things…
“Western men do not suddenly become more attractive in Thailand it’s simply an issue of men taking advantage of market disparities.”
ie. Farang men attract Thai girls because Thai girls think they will get money from them, to support whatever lifestyle they aspire to. Passive prostitution. I’m not saying it doesnt happen in western cultures, but in Thailand it is extreme.
Bravo! http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2008/07/02/tongue-tied-farangs/
Hi Lobo,
Regarding Thai mens penis size…hmm, thats an age old one. Well, let me address your statement as though it were an honest inquiry, and not a trollish one.
I dont know how many Thai men you have slept with or ogled at in order to gather that personal opinion, but my own personal experience is that its an untrue statement. Then again, my partner is taller than me (and i am 5’7″), heavier than me, and broad. Many western men look like dough boys next to him. Also, from other western women who have dated Thai men,in their experience, it also seems to be a generalised assumption about Asian men that is unfounded. I suppose if a man is short and of slight build he may be less well-endowed, but wouldnt that then be the same in the west too? Or do you really believe ALL western men are well-hung, and ALL Asian men are lacking? That, of course, would include the strong spanish blood of Filipinos too? Because, of course how can a Latino-Asian be well-hung..right? But, most western men like to take joy in this childish notion, for what reason, i do not know. I suppose might be because they truly are indeed huge dicks, but I doubt that reflects the size of their penis.
..and, sexual satisfaction for a woman isnt all about the size of a penis. Sadly too many fumbling bumbling sexually clueless would-be lothario’s fail to understand that.
Hope that helps.