Thank you for your most eloquent and intellectually enlightening words.

Something I don’t think you were ever a member of The Harvard Law debating team, or any other for that matter.

Should I acquire a fascination for bar girls I will seek out your wisdom most venerable professor.

No, you may not ask what my race is because it has nothing to do with this conversation. I’m not the one labeling an entire ethnic group as lazy and unintelligent.

I really don’t understand why you feel that you can say any half-assed remark you want and then it’s my job to educate you on things you know nothing about.

Why are 99% of the girls from Isaan? Because only about 10% - 20% of the girls in the prostitution game are involved in Farang/Thai prostitution. The other 80% - 90% service Thais. And, as already been discussed, many Thais are racists and think that the dark brown skin of Isaan girls is grotesque. There is no market for Isaan girls in Thai brothels.

Isaan girls often see marrying a farang as the only way out of their current poverty cycle. They don’t get into prostitution because they want to be whores. They get into prostitution either because they are forced into it (which I’ll explain in a moment) or they are misguided into thinking that it’s a quick path to meeting a nice, rich farang who will marry them and save them.

Many girls end up forced into it by greedy parents or boyfriends/husbands who know it’s easy cash for them. Let’s say a Isaan girl goes to Bangkok to work in a factory or some other low-paying job. Perhaps her parent’s gambling problems or her husband’s refusal to get a job and drinking problems put her in a position where those around her are expecting more money than her job will allow. Being uneducated and seen as on the bottom rung of the societal ladder her only option is to work in the farang bars (Thai brothels would never accept her).

Dude, you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about. You started off making racist and uneducated comments and then have slowly attempted to try to dig yourself out of that hole by downplaying what you intended to say. You cannot write “intellect (LOL)” and then try to say you were talking about a lifestyle. Intelligence is something you are born with or not. So commenting that an entire group of people are not intelligent is racist. Do you need a dictionary to help you define what racism is?

If you wanted to talk ONLY about girls working in the entertainment industry you should have said so. You didn’t.

I can agree that girls working in the entertainment industry share many common personality traits. That would be because they’re a self-selecting group. They made choices that brought them to where they are. I can almost tell a bar girl her own life story based on the first few words that come out of her mouth because they all got to where they are through a similar process.

But that is merely once facet of Isaan people. What about all of the ones who do end up attending university hoping for a better life? What about the ones who stay in the dead-end, low paying jobs because they are happier doing that than going for the quick cash in the farang prostitution option? What about the ones who find a nice Isaan Thai man to marry and have a relatively happy life together?

Here’s a hint for you; if you don’t like being called a racist don’t make racist comments. The internet is already full-up on ignorant jerkoffs who come to Thailand and bang a bunch of hookers and think they know what Thailand and Thai people are about.

Billy

Low end men or women of any skin color are (often? usually) not found desirable by men/women of ANY skin color that have greater personal/intellectual development.

I doubt someone with Barack Obama’s background would find much in common dating a woman(any skin color) that decided bypassing basic education and working in a business that tries to get YOUR assets to support her and family members that have learned a “free meal ticket” is the way to go.

I doubt an educated Thai of color would very much be interested in dating a white skin massage girl from the north either.

Let me add, that there are some “entertainment” girls that are very lovely, sweet, genuinely nice people, however, the reason they are in that business (money) is the bottom line, including the so called “freelancers”

This is not racism, this is reality.

If what you say is true (99% bar girls from Issan), why is there such a disproportionately high % from Issan when after all, there is poverty everywhere in Thailand?

Anyway, I have spent time in Issan and there are a great number of people working hard and diligently, studying, etc etc, and they have nothing to do with the scamming mentality that is pervasive in the entertainment industry.

Believe it or not at one point in my life I was a victim of racism.
What I discuss here is not about skin color or origin, its about mentality, lifestyle of some people and clearly not all.
If I applaud and respect and acknowledge the majority of people from Issan that are not scamming, but hard working honest respectable good hearted people but comment realistically on some “entertainment” girls that belong to a subset of population I am racist??????

Do you suggest my arguments albeit based in fact, should be dismissed as invalid, because they are “racist” ?(per your perception)
May I ask what is your racial background?

To be honest, I think I understand your point or objective less with each post. All I know is you have a tendency to make sweeping generalizations and start off a lot of sentences with the phrase “Is it racist . . .”

But let’s just look at what you have said.

Your first comment was quoting a Thai friend who told you how these low-end girls aren’t attractive to Thai men. Oh, and you made the point of putting LOL when referencing their intellectual qualities. Is that racist? Yes.

First, your Thai friend is racist. I know it sounds odd that a Thai could be racist against another Thai but it’s about as easy to understand as how light skinned blacks think dark skinned blacks are inferior. It doesn’t matter if you’re Thai or not, to think that people from Isaan are inferior is racist. And to quote him and agree with him is . . . also racist.

Then when WW called you on it you qualified it by saying he was referencing girls working in the entertainment industry which are about 99% Isaan girls so WW didn’t just throw Isaan into the conversation; you did whether you realize it or not. What both WW and I both picked up on based on what your Thai friend said in your first comment was that he was speaking specifically about Isaan people who are considered low class by many other Thais. That was how you introduced Isaan into the conversation whether you were aware of it or not.

You keep making this like it’s an issue of education but an educated Thai from Isaan is still from Isaan. Your educated Thai friend was probably not of Isaan origin which is why he’s racist against people from Isaan and said they are considered unattractive to Thai people. Again, is that racist? 100% yes!!!

So the best answer I can put together is that your friend is certainly a racist and if you believe what he’s told you then you are as well.

Everything else you’ve said has been pretty much nonsense. Be it the crap about all western/Thai relationships being bar girls or be it the 20 year old notion that Thais don’t hold hands in public and are “sexually repressed.”

I mean, just go onto a dating site like Thai Love Links and there are thousands of women registered on there. Hell, on a good evening there might be 800 or more online at any one time. I would say out of that a very small percentage have ever worked in the entertainment industry. Yet there they are, trying to meet a farang. And the guys are on there too. Guys looking to meet a nice mainstream girl.

And that’s just one site. There are tons of others. Tagged, Hi5, MySpace, Facebook, Match.com, Thailand Friends, etc, etc, etc. Or go to Thai Visa or Ajarn and talk to all the guys who are married to girls or have girlfriends who have never worked in the entertainment industry. The facts simply don’t support your conclusions.

As to your last item, I don’t care what does it for you. I write what I write and if you don’t like my style of writing or the language I use you have the option not to read it. Sorry, but the entire internet can’t be catered around what does it for you. Maybe you should stick with sites that share your racists views of Isaan women.

Billy

or

2) I am a racist obsessed with not seeming like one

3) Maybe not a racist

I only make a mention to Pattaya. Although you ignored it, I also said my observation throughout other areas (BKK including numerous neighborhoods away from Sukhumvit/Nana/Silom entertainment)One or twice I saw a wesertn guy with a girl that did not appear to be from the “entertainment venue” However, on numerous occasions I see western males with “bar girl looking” companionship at Central World, Siam Paragon, Emporium, MBK, Lat Prao Mall, and other upscale non western locales.
From your posts it seems you are in what seems to be the small minority or westerners that go out with mainstream girls.

Your reference to a night club where affection may be observed is not a public place. It is a few hours in a synthetic private environment with alcohol.

The % of thai couples that hold hands is significantly low, not that it matters. It certainly does not matter to me.

It’s always been her suggestion. Sure she might try to be coy about it but no girl wants to seem like a slut.

Would it surprise you if discussing sexual performance/liaisons on the internet or personally with friends doesn’t “do it for me” nor does using what I consider unnecessary language ie: grabbing at your tits and ass all night that turns many of these girls into that rude, obnoxious fuck

I’m sorry, but I have a serious problem with this:

would it surprise you to learn mainstream girls are quite conservative and can be sexually repressed, barring the ones that spent time abroad, etc. the bar girls don’t seem sexually sophisticated either.

The problem is that this is so ill informed that I have to believe that your overall knowledge on this subject is highly inaccurate.

What you wrote may have been true 20 or 30 years ago or it might apply to some very old fashioned girls of today but otherwise it’s bullshit. The same websites you read that on would also tell you that Thais don’t hold hands, kiss, or show any sort of public display of affection in public. I think sitting for 20 minutes in any of the big shopping centers would completely dispel that myth. And going out to a proper nightclub would not only kill but bury any notion that Thais don’t do public displays of affection. Granted, they’re still conservative by western standards and there are some girls who are still old fashioned but your average Thai girl in her 20’s or 30’s is more western than what you describe.

And in terms of sexually repressed . . . I’ve never asked a girl to come back to my place with me. It’s always been her suggestion. Sure she might try to be coy about it but no girl wants to seem like a slut. Thai or farang, they always want to have the “it just happened” excuse.

In terms of performance in bed; no complaints. Obviously some are going to be more experienced and/or enthusiastic than others but I’ve never had a girl starfish on me which is a compliment I cannot give to some bar girls. Some have been truly fantastic lovers and I rank them up there as some of my best experiences in bed.

I think the crux of our disagreement or different points of view is that you sound like your world-view of Thailand is shaped 100% by what you see (or have seen) in Pattaya. Within the microcosm of Pattaya some of the things you say hold true due to the fact that Pattaya has become the world-wide capital for sexpats and the women who are drawn to them. So doesn’t it seem silly to look at that microcosm and try to ask where all of the marriage-minded farangs are? Doesn’t it seem equally as futile to try to find the nice, mainstream Thai girl? Your average guy who wants to come and live in Thailand, make a decent salary, and meet a nice girl here isn’t going to live in Pattaya. Likewise, what kind of work is there for a girl in Pattaya other than working in the bars?

So sorry to sound dismissive but I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make. You seem to be bent on not seeming racist while making generalizations on topics you don’t seem to know much about.

Get your ass out of Pattaya and go meet some nice, mainstream girls and see if you have the same attitude. There are some really nice ladies out there if you’re willing to put in the time and effort to treat them nicely.

Billy

By the looks of your writing you are certainly impassioned by what you write, and well knowledgeable.

now if you personally are dating a mainstream girl you are among the apparent tiny minority of western guys living in thailand.
my initial comments relate to what is glaringly clear in bkk and in the “city” that the sex business built, starts with a “P” can you guess? and i believe what i have noted basically throughout Thailand to be more of the same.

as far as bar girl goals i can see your point, although they complain about all the reason why they never have money. sick relatives, etc etc etc. let me ask you this. those girls and generations of girls like them have their native language, property ownership and wide open business rights.

yet, bonafide poor uneducated immigrants from china arrive in thailand without speaking the language, and somehow manage to not only survive, but achieve considerable success and have you ever seen recent immigrant chinese girls at expat bars?
please do not counter with allegations of racism. what i have stated seems to be simple fact.
if i acknowledge that in this world there exists no shortage of “white trash” would you label me racist?

come on, do you think the vast majority of expats came to thailand to date mainstream girls???

would it surprise you to learn mainstream girls are quite conservative and can be sexually repressed, barring the ones that spent time abroad, etc. the bar girls don’t seem sexually sophisticated either. much of bar girl-customer relations seem more akin to animal husbandry.
sorry to say i have rarely seen a western guy with a thai girl that didn’t appear to be in the “entertainment” business. I’m not saying it does not exist, just well hidden.

you refer to prostitutes in other countries but it sure seems that the dimensions of prostitution in thailand are huge. it is an “industry”

so you don’t think a girl that suckers multiple guys into sending her money is a bad person? some would argue “criminality” but since she might have a nice smile when she says “hello handsome man” it is not so bad.

to a certain degree the girls become the environment they are in. when your friends are seasoned scammers it just might rub off on you

i say to each their own. the apparent overwhelming majority of “handsome sophisticated men” may be quite happy and kudos to them. it probably? beats being somewhere in europe or usa and dating women of similar status and appearance

While I can sympathize with your point it is indeed racist. It’s really hard to talk about Thais without making some generalizations so I can agree with some of what you say on a very general level and strongly disagree with other parts.

An educated Thai would never date or marry a Thai working girl because in Thai society it would be suicide. Bye bye promotion, your family would disown you, etc. That’s not to say that he might not have a regular stable of whores on the side or a mia noi but as is the Thai way, it’s not what you do, it’s what you do in public.

And, I think it’s a well known that many upper and middle class Thais see people from Isaan as being inferior. Their beliefs - as WW pointed out - are just as uneducated, racist, and bigoted as someone who thinks blacks are niggers.

So, your Thai friend’s view is not surprising. In fact, I would be surprised if he had said something different. But being Thai doesn’t make him right.

Now, you’ve specifically focused on the topic of “entertainment” girls. Well, dude, you’re talking about whores. Sorry, I hate to use such a demeaning term but I think we need to get it out in the open so we can really examine what your argument is. So then, are you saying that crack whores in Farangland are much more aspirational than Thai whores? Ahh yes, I remember that window prostitute in Amsterdam telling me about her musical training just before she sucked my cock. What an absurd argument.

And a lot of what you’re attributing to “those girls” actually applies to many Thais. Try scheduling an appointment with a Thai person and see if they show up on time. Perhaps the percentage is higher than for bar girls but it’s not a flaw exclusive to bar girls.

Likewise I think you’ll find it a general observation that Thais - regardless of level of education - lack what we in the west would term intellectual curiosity. Yes, there are some brilliant, educated Thai people out there but I challenge you to hang out in a business district in Bangkok and ask people how many books they’ve read in the last year that were not required reading as part of their job.

I’ve dated quite a few educated Thai women and only a small percent can even discuss Thai politics. I actually know the names of more Thai politicians than many of the Thai women I’ve dated. When I was in BKK last Dec during the elections I mentioned to one girl (who had a masters degree) that the bars were closed for the elections. She didn’t even know there were elections going on!!!

So again, you’re putting these negative attributes on only Thai whores when many are simply cultural issues shared by most Thais.

But what it then comes down to is are they even negative attributes? If I ever dated a farang woman who’s played an instrument I’m unaware of it. I’m sure some did but there wasn’t a violin in the house or a grand piano in the living room. They certainly weren’t serious in their study of it. How is that person better or worse than a Thai who’s never learned to play an instrument? Same same.

And while many Thais lack intellectual curiosity not all do. I have Thai friends who are very clued into Thai politics. They are well read and have traveled. They constantly quiz me on things going on in the US and Europe to get a farang perspective.

But even then, I actually find a certain level of admiration for someone happy living in the now. I won’t say that I don’t sometimes find it frustrating but they’re a lot happier than I am so maybe I’m the one doing it wrong And it is simplicity that often draws me to them. You say “just live for today” but isn’t that what a lot of self-help books recommend as a path to happiness?

And you mention hobbies but I think you may be missing out on something. I think farang culture pushes hobbies as being a key focal point of your life where I see Thai women with hobbies but it’s less at the forefront. For instance, I have female Thai friends who draw, take language classes (for no business reason - just an interest in learning something new), cook like world class chefs, golf, scuba dive, play chess, etc. And that was just the first few people who popped into my head. Having a hobby doesn’t mean you have to have a bumper sticker on your car that says “I heart _____” I think western culture says that your hobby has to borderline on obsession for it to be a real hobby. You can’t just golf, you have to get the golf coffee mug, the stupid desktop paperweight, and constantly talk about how you wish you had more time for it. I just don’t think Thais get that serious about their hobbies. They have them; they’re just not fanatical about them like we are.

In terms of goals, again I think you may not be seeing the big picture here. Especially when it comes to Isaan girls they may have goals but they may be much more modest than you’re used to. If you’re some Isaan girl who’s parents have slaved away under the baking sun for 40 years harvesting rice your goal in life might be not to have to do that yourself. You goal might be to have a life where you don’t live harvest to harvest or paycheck to paycheck. In such a family oriented and traditional culture one of your goals might be to be a good wife and mother. Maybe like many of the original immigrants to the US it’s more important to give your children a better life than it is to pursue your own dreams.

In terms of bar girls . . . most have goals. Again, they are modest by western standards but most do have goals. I think the most frequent ones you hear is to make enough money to be able to buy some land and build a house back in their hometown. Doesn’t sound like much considering how inexpensive it is to buy and build in Isaan but like I said . . . from where she started this would be a major move up life’s ladder.

Now, getting back to the whores . . . yes, many are rude. Very rude. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen any start off that way. I’ve watched them become that way after years of working the go-gos but most are shy and quiet when they first start out. It’s the years of living your life in a smoke filled room, drinking every night, and having drunk farangs grabbing at your tits and ass all night that turns many of these girls into that rude, obnoxious fuck that you wish would leave you alone.

Can you expect anything else? As much as we all like to think of ourselves as good upstanding people try hanging out in Pattaya, Cowboy, Nana, or Patpong for any length of time. See what kinds of scumbags travel from all ends of the earth to come there.

I remember reading on Stickman’s site a user submission from a guy who wrote a guide on how to rip off bar girls. I mean this guy was stealing cash out of their purse while they showered, ditching them in restaurants after having sex without paying, and on and on. The guy sent these “tips” to Stickman because he thought other guys should be doing the same. The guy happened to be on the run from the law back in Canada for running an employment agency scam where he got girls to pay him to help them find work and then he just took their money and skipped town.

These are the kind of people these bar girls deal with every day. I can’t say I blame them when they become hardened. They’re dealing with some of the scum of the earth so their world view is going to get pretty distorted. Any girl who didn’t harden would get eaten up.

Or what about the girl who some guy strung along for a year while the entire time he had a wife and kids he had no intention leaving? How many times do you think you would allow yourself to get fucked over before you thought it was your turn to do the fucking over? They may be uneducated but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that guys are using you and you can either allow yourself to be used or you can strike back and use them and their desire to have sex with you to make a better life for yourself.

Or better yet, just the other night I was at a go-go on Cowboy and one of the customers got up and left without paying. His hostess got stuck for a 500 baht bill. Yeah, there’s a reason why she doesn’t see anything wrong with sticking you for a drink you didn’t order. In her mind it’s just making up for the times she got stiffed and had to come up with the cash out of her own pocket.

Don’t get me wrong though. I’m not suggesting that their behavior is acceptable. It’s that it’s predictable. I don’t think that the girl that suckers a bunch of guys into sending her money is a bad person. That’s just the reality of her world. And yes, I’ve actually known some of these gals well enough that they’ve shared with me how and why they do what they do.

And lastly, I only did a quick re-read of the comments in this thread but this article was about why farang guys like Thai women. It was not about why farang guys like Thai prostitutes. I’m not sure how you got onto the topic of prostitutes but that was not the topic I started off writing about.

I asked a Thai male friend about the idea of living with a entertainment girl from pattaya. the thai male is also of “color” however completed university and if i recall maybe a masters also, and is hard working with a successful business.
the reply was that thai men do not find those girls attractive. I imagine that this applies to thai guys with some education. in actuality you rarely see thai men(any thai men) as patrons in entertainment venues frequented by westerners. my friend elaborated by saying thai men are weary of the stories the thai farang entertainment girls create aimed at gaining sympathy and money.
realistically a very high % of western males live in areas populated with entertainment venues, including an entire city.
maybe i am deaf, dumb and blind, but it doesn’t seem like many of those girls have much in the way of basic personal development, hobbies, playing a musical instrument, reading….. some of them are very nice, friendly, big smile, but the smile and friendliness is BUSINESS. the bottom line is financial. there does not seem to be an overwhelming preponderance of girls with some type of plan or goal. just live for today. there are tons of people from issan that are motivated, reliable, and hold jobs in other areas outside of the entertainment business. issan has universities.

am i racist if sure seems like a high % of those girls lack the degree of reliability to show up on time if show up at all at a mainstream job?

am i racist if by observation many of them cannot speak without yelling, are often rude.

the concept of societal drift seems to be at work.

==============================================================
Since you mention “inellectual(LOL) perspective”:

One thing to wonder about is why anyone would concern themselves with who the Thai men you have talked to believe are the “low end” of Thai society.

Essentially the idea you’re quoting is a form of racism that is based on classifying the people of Isaan as ‘inferior’ based largely on the regional history of SE Asia, the shade of their skin and the fact that their primary occupation is farming. These ideas were debunked in most places in the world early in the last century. I’m surprised that anyone would parade them publicly as a legitimate point of view in this age.

I might as well ask why some southern men insist on dating “ignorant niggers” in the United States instead of “decent white women”.

Do you think the ideas of the Thai men you hold out as your authority is any less ignorant or offensive?