I want to start off this post with a very strong disclaimer: The goal of this post is not to minimize the risks of unprotected sex in any way. The goal is to look at facts and attempt to determine what is true and what is a myth in regards to AIDS/HIV in Thailand. Wear a condom. Always!
With that out of the way, let me give you some background. I’ve been reading various websites over the years and the people constantly mention the high HIV infection rate, especially in girls involved in prostitution. At the same time, Stickman has been quoted as saying that a large number of people he knows engage in unsafe sex (I believe I remember reading he said it was close to 50%). Rumors abound that many working girls will go without a condom for an extra tip. Stick also warns that there are several girls who are well known to be HIV positive and are still working.
If all of this is true; why isn’t there an AIDS/HIV epidemic in the farang community? With the amount of sex that goes on in Patpong, Soi Cowboy, Nana, Pattaya, Patong, and so on why are there so few stories about large numbers of farang men testing positive for HIV?
Now some might claim that the Thai authorities keep it hushed up or that someone who tests HIV positive isn’t likely to broadcast their status to all their friends. But that doesn’t explain why large numbers of men aren’t simply dropping out of the Thailand scene never to be heard from again as their AIDS begins to take hold. Surely people would notice this trend and comment on it, no? Nor does it explain why US, UK, other European, and Australian health officials aren’t sounding a loud bell warning the world about a large spike in cases from tourists recently returned from Thailand.
I don’t mean to propose that people aren’t contracting HIV in Thailand. I’m just asking why the societal impacts don’t seem to match up to the risk being reported.
First off, not everything may be as it seems. Do a large number of women go with farangs without requiring a condom? I don’t think anybody is ever going to be able to do reliable stats on that but my anecdotal evidence is that I’ve met not a single go-go dancer or bar girl who will let you party without a hat. I’ll even joke around and ask how much and not a one ever went for any reasonable offer (up to 1000 baht extra – over that and I guess people will do anything for money but I doubt few regulars to the scene are shelling out that kind of cash per session). By the way, I ask them both for educational purposes and to weed out anyone who would.
Of course my evidence is anecdotal as is Stick’s and others who make this claim so the only thing we can take away from this is maybe I’m too optimistic and the others are too pessimistic and the truth lies somewhere between.
Likewise I don’t know anybody who has ever told me they like to sleep with bargirls without protection. I’m sure some of my friends have done it from time to time or might make a habit out of it but they’ve never discussed it with me. Again, I think my anecdotal evidence runs the opposite end of the spectrum from others so somewhere between our two groups of friends must be the norm.
Lastly, when we see all of these numbers published about HIV/AIDS in Thailand and especially when the numbers concern women engaged in prostitution there is no distinction made between farang prostitution and Thai prostitution which may give misleading numbers. Just due to the sex education available to farangs back home they are far, far less likely to have sex without a condom than say a Thai army conscript who is losing his virginity in a brothel. For that and many other reasons (such as better outreach programs and regular testing) I think it would be safe to assume that sex workers servicing Thai clients are much more likely to contract and spread HIV than those servicing farang customers. So when you hear numbers being thrown around like “X% of Thai sex workers are HIV positive” it doesn’t necessarily mean that that X% of girls working on Soi Cowboy or Nana are HIV positive.
For instance, according to the WHO:
However, problems remain. Infection rates among injecting drug users remain high at 20%-45% nationwide. And in rural areas, HIV infection rates among sex workers have increased. In 1997, 20% of sex workers in rural areas were HIV-positive compared with only 7% in Bangkok. To make matters worse, studies carried out in rural areas reveal that only 50% of men who visit sex workers consistently use condoms. And as risk behaviour increasingly shifts from commercial sex to unprotected casual sex, efforts will be needed to sustain reduced infection rates.
I know this is an old report but it demonstrates how using one infection rate across the entire country is flawed logic. Let’s say the combined total is 14% (since most of the population in Thailand is rural and places like Chiang Mai at one point had rates as high as 40%, I’m assuming the numbers skew to the high side). Saying you have a 14% chance of meeting an HIV positive sex worker in a brothel in Buriram is way too low and saying you have a 14% chance in Nana is double the rate for Bangkok as a whole.
Also, as mentioned before, even in the 7% Bangkok number there is no breakdown between sex workers who service Thais and farangs. I think it would be safe to assume that a Thai brothel is more likely to adopt the Thai casualness towards requiring condoms than would be a farang owned bar on Soi Cowboy. And seeing as that there are more sex workers working in the Thai sex industry than in the farang sex industry, again, assuming a 7% infection rate for your average Nana go-go is likely to be a huge overestimate.
And on top of all that, there’s the tendency to automatically assume a sex worker is a female. There is a vibrant transgender and gay prostitution industry in Bangkok as well. Unfortunately, most educational and awareness programs are aimed at women so, again, I think one would have to assume that HIV rates would run higher in the gay and transgender sex industry which would inflate the Bangkok numbers (the number of gay brothels outside of Bangkok is assumed to be very small compared to within Bangkok) as they too are sex workers.
We may never know the actual truth about what the infection rate is in farang sex venues. Nor is it likely that we will ever hear any sort of accurate numbers regarding how many farangs are contracting HIV from sleeping with Thai prostitutes. Actually we might if there was an alarming trend but barring that the NGOs and other groups who gather this type of data would be doing Thailand a disservice if they were to indicate that the chance of contracting HIV in farang oriented sex venues was relatively low. Better to report the overall number so as to put enough scare into potential customers that they either think twice about going with a prostitute or concerned enough to insist on using a condom.
Again, I would like to close by saying that none of this is meant to downplay the likelihood or the consequences of contracting HIV. If anything it is more for the person who normally practices safe sex and has a condom break during intercourse with a go-go dancer and is wondering what the real chances of him contracting HIV might be without all of the hype and also without all the crazy conspiracy theories that purport everything from you can’t catch HIV from heterosexual sex to there being no link between HIV and AIDS. After reading way too many threads and websites with people giving inaccurate data on both sides of the argument I simply wanted to take a neutral look at the subject and invite people who may have found better data sources than I was able to to comment and better educate people on this important topic.
Wear a condom. Always!
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{ 28 comments… read them below or add one }
I’ve gone twice without a condom with a bargirl. Both because of accidents.
The first time I was drunk and all three condoms broke.
The second time, I was also drunk, the condom broke. That time the girl was really cute and I just went with it, rather than doing the sensible thing.
Neither of the women commented or protested, or got upset about it.
There’s also a few times when the girl’s been hot that she’s kind of indicated that she wants penetration right away. Maybe that’s because I’m so hansum though.
Well, I do hope you’ve been tested since those times JoeF. Not something to play around with.
> I think it would be safe to assume that a Thai brothel is more likely to adopt the Thai casualness towards requiring condoms than would be a farang owned bar on Soi Cowboy.
If there is one thing I learned in Thailand, that is not to make assumptions (even reasonable-sounding ones). Until you’ve seen it, you just don’t know… and if you have you probably still don’t know much (but can sound confident as I do below).
Upcountry Thai brothels are not relaxed and casual places at all. Several I know strongly insist on condoms, and girls will not even do a BJ without one (which is a standard practice in the Farang scene) — that is if they do a BJ at all. Money is commonly paid in advance, tips are not common, and customer numbers are high — girls have little incentive to deviate from the program.
Of course, doubling the fee would probably do the trick in most cases, but let’s assume (based on no evidence) that this is not common.
Moreover, a typical upcountry Thai guy seems not to care much for service, just that a girl is pretty. That’s why Farang get the ugliest girls who with amazingly good attitudes (given what they have to put up with).
It’s impossible to know what goes on behind closed doors, but from talking to punters, I’d figure that in the Farang scene, no-condom sex usually happens on the multiple-day GFE jobs — when there is some chemistry and a girl has a sense that the customer is clean (misguided as it may be), and that he may be sponsor material. It would be rare to see no-condom-sex thrown in upfront with the typical ST or even LT package — girls are drilled not to accept it. Thais are quite happy with a disconnect between public words and actions, so don’t take much of what they say at face value (if the topic is sensitive).
As for the HIV rates… NGOs have a strong self-interest in inflating them. Figures you mentioned for Thai brothels (40% for Chiang Mai) are prehistoric — from the early 1990′s, before the condom use campaign, and while Thai brothels were common up north (only a fraction remain open). The only figure I trust to a point is ~1% for the population at large (note that this does include gays and drug users). I’m not convinced a typical Pattaya bargirl has much higher risk than a good upcountry girl doing it unprotected with a philandering Thai boyfriend (judging by number of single moms around, this is very common…)
It’s hard to say anything certain on the topic except that HIV is real, chance of contracting it in Thailand is not insignificant, and condoms should be used at all times.
I HAVE BEEN TO PATTAYA ONCE AND I FUCKED ABOUT 20 GIRLS WITHOUT USING CONDOMS AND THEY LOVE IT SO MUCH CAUSE AM AN OLD MAN OF 50 YEARS OLD AND THEY ARE 18 YEARS GIRLS…
I have been doing some searching on this topic as well. I am a ‘leaser’ of girls. I find one I like and then pay her barfine for a week or so and hang with her. This always works best for me as im a very personable sort and not a complete animal.
My rental and I always go to the hospital and get the whole barage of tests and then play raincoat free. It is an added expense but i feel well worth the price. Yes I am aware of the incubation period for HIV, however I will roll the dice as Sex with a condom is god awful.
Anywho…I have questioned these girls as they have gotten to know me better and in every case they know someone who has contracted the virus. However these were never girls that they worked with. I dont know if they are trying to protect their turf but this really doesnt seem to be the problem projected.
I am not saying that it isnt a problem, however I think a little injected fear and paranoia has gone a long way.
One of these girls in fact had a sister who died from the virus, who didnt work bar. Where did she get it? thai boyfriend.
Its out there im sure..but where are the farang infections?
Well I have learned the past year that it is extremely easy to convince regular women to go condomless if they like you. Even educated, non-promiscuous, reserved women. So I would not be at all suprised if the average worker in bangkok is going bareback with farangs regularly if they think eachother “look clean”. They will do it.
When the farang finally realizes he has HIV it might be months or years later, so that would explain the lack of posts on messages boards, ect. They might not even connect the dots. Shit, if I tested positive, I would be talking to ex gfs thinking it was them just because of frequency. And I would guess many of us have been different places so you’d never be able to say for sure it was Thailand.
I don’t want to be accused of being judgmental so I’ll state first that I love sexual variety and have slept with over 70 women in my life. I’m 46. Only two of them have been prostitutes( one Thai one Taiwanese) but that is not my point. btw I live in Asia and have travelled the region extensively but not as a sex tourist. However I place no judgment on those that do as that would be the height of hypocrisy on my part.
For the last 20 years I have ALWAYS used a condom (usually with water based lubricant handy should I feel I need it) and only stopped in a trusted long term relationship AFTER we have both been tested. For my many casual encounters condoms are just a matter of course. I’m now so used to them that I feel some difference in stimulation compared to without but very little difference and the peace of mind they offer is priceless.
Now here is the part where I may sound somewhat judgmental but I’ll state it regardless. Anyone willing to risk acquiring HIV by having unprotected sex, particularly with a Thai sex worker is one thing: STUPID!!! I witnessed my uncle die of the disease at age 50 16 years ago. He got it through unprotected anal intercourse. He was gay. However no matter how you acquire it brothers you sure as shit don’t want it!
With my sexual history and lifestyle I’ve never found myself preaching but if I had to preach one thing it would be this: Protect yourself. Protect others. Wear a condom. Always!!
@nadie: No offense but that doesn’t make much sense.
Let’s see, I just tested HIV positive. Did I get it from my ex-gf or that Pattaya hooker I barebacked six months ago? Hmmmmm . . . .
Well if you are positive they should have taken a viral load/CD4 test and compared it against your gf’s…if your gf’s viral load is higher than yours…there is a possible answer. Unless she never told you and was on meds during that time…then i think you need to contact the authorities.
However you probably know that right
Just as a follow up…I had sex with a bar girl from Soi Cowboy and my condom broke….I then stopped and put a new one one….It is a worry…
I am having difficulty finding any reliable evidence of HIV rates among thai sex workers in Soi Cowboy bars.
Does anyone know of good stats available?
@jackmarch: I don’t think anybody is collecting stats. But do get yourself checked out if you’re worried. I’ve heard good things about the clinic on the little sub-soi on Soi 11. If you know where Cheap Charlie’s is, take a left towards Cheap Charlie’s and then head up that little back area and there’s a clinic. Reasonable prices and they supposedly get you in and out within a few minutes.
I went with a Pattaya girl just before leaving……I really would have been ok with just falling asleep…as I had had REALLY had my fill and would be leaving in just a few hours …but the girls was nice approached me and really wanted to go with me …why not……
because I was stupid and couldn’t cum due to excess nookie already….I did her without a condom….
I also got and gave oral sex….
I’ve been pretty lucky and always took a good piss when I made similar dumb moves in the past …just hope my luck doesn’t run out….maybe I will let you know
i barebacked. i’m paying the price. hiv +
Some people read this stuff looking for justification to go bareback trying to convince themselves that the chances are low enough to take the risk. Some people want to know the stats because they are happy to play the odds with their life and potentially their loved ones.
What if it is 1% chance, what if it is 50%…….What if it is mostly the gay’s or LB’s? Do you want HIV or AIDS? Take the chance or bag up……
If you are the type to take the chance if the odds are 50% you would probably still role the dice and do it any way in the heat of the moment.
It’s a bit sad but it just won’t make much of a difference to most people when the time comes.
Well, condoms do not have a 100% effective rate so every time you have sex, even with a condom you have a risk.
Everything has a certain risk to it. Whether it be flying in an airplane to driving in a car. In fact, you’re probably more likely to die in a car accident than to catch HIV. So, should we get rid of cars because they are more dangerous?
Everything needs to be put into perspective. While it is much safer to wear a condom than not, there is a mathematical risk factor that you can calculate. The problem is people tend to inflate the risk based on media hype.
I don’t want to seem like I’m saying that people don’t have to wear condoms. That’s not my message at all. What I’m saying is, understand the real risk and not the media hyped up risk. Every year a few people get killed by sharks and the media runs headlines making it seem like shark attacks are common. Yet, more people die from bee stings and there is no bee sting media scare.
in my life ive only slept with 5 women. back when i slept with a girl without a condom in canada, i freaked out about sti’s & hiv and then got tested and was in good health. now that ive just slept with a thai bargirl in patong without protection im realllllly losing my shit. what a stupid move. hiv would ruin my life. i want to marry and have kids one day.
now, i dont know maybe im freaking out a bit too much. but compared to worrying when i was in canada this is incredibly harder to handle. i wasnt planning on going to patong that night so i didnt bring any condoms. this girl actually bought me drinks, and i didnt pay her for it or anything, so then when she took me back to her place and didnt have any condoms she just kindof got on top of me and that was that. and then after when she tried to do it twice more i thought whats the difference. she also told me when i protested that she uses condoms with other guys, although im wondering now if she just said that. also i did take a piss a minute or so after each time, i know that is supposed to lower risk.
anyways. im just really freaking out. i know i should be worried, but how much? such a subjective question that im trying to quantify, but i guess its probably like a 5-10% rate in patong bargirls? and then what is the risk of getting it each time you sleep with them if they do have it?
Call it reckless or fatalistic, but I do not worry much about HIV/aids other than the most obvious precautions, and that does not include the unpleasant use of a condom. Look at HIV under Wikipedia, or go directly to the U.S. Center for Disease Control’s website, and you find an estimate that for every 10,000 heterosexual sexual encounters even with women who were all HIV Positive, only 5 new male infections would result. It’s therefore reasonable to conclude that a man’s risk of catching this disease from heterosexual sex is less than the chances of getting killed on your motorcycle riding to the bar.
Obviously, I would not be with a woman who looks sick, is on her period, is dirty or who has open sores, but if even 5% of Thai bar girls are HIV pos, your chances of getting infected are 1 in 40,000.
You can still have a chance of getting STD even you wear condoms. My friend had dated her BF for 2 yrs. and she got STD from him-later on they broke up. Now dating has been hard for her. My 2 Thai male cousins got HIV and one just passed away, another is in bad conditions. They both loved visiting bar girls in Thailand.
It could be just one nightstand. It doesn’t worth it!!
While using a condome greatly decreases these risks, nothing is 100%. There are certain diseases out there that can still b given to you with a condom such as herpes if your partner has an outbreak on his pubic area and that area comes into contact with you, chances are you have herpes.
Latex and poly Condoms are about 98% effective against HIV – but you have to be sure you’re using them correctly.
Condoms will protect you from gonorrhea, chlamydia and trichomonis.
Condoms will protect you from syphillis (if there is not open sore or rash present,)
They may protect against HPV & Herpes if the sore/warts are on the penis and covered by the condom. But it’s very risky, as HPV is hard to see, and herpes can be contagious without having an outbreak.
Condoms will not protect you from HPV/Herpes if the warts/sores are on the scrotum, on the vagina, inner thighs or around the rectum.
Condoms will not protect you from crabs.
Lambskin condoms will not protect you from HIV, HPV, Herpes, crabs, and may not be effective in preventing gonorrhea, syphillis, chlamydia and trichomonis.
Not having sex will protect you from all these diseases. Staying in your house alone 24/7 will protect you from many hazards like crime, accidents or diseases. It all comes down to quality of life vs. quantity of life. If the CDC numbers are correct, and the chances of a male catching HIV is 1/2000 even with an infected woman, and 1/40,000 (or less) with the overall population, these are acceptable risks. For the other diseases above, that’s what pharmacies are for.
“Mantanna”, if used properly condoms are 100% safe against HIV infection. That is right, if the condom does not break and its used properly the HIV virus cannot penetrate latex rubber.
Sure, if I have a sore on my crotch and you have a sore on your crotch and we decide to grin our crothes together in a lusty bee’s dance of fluid sharing we could contract all sorts of things from each other.
Herpes for example. Do you realize that up to 80% of the North American population is infected with Herpes ? Do you realize that you can get herpes from sharing a drink or kissing your mother? In fact one of the biggest transmitters of the virus is from mother to child…during birth.
How many sex partners have you had that have had open, oozing wounds?
As for your cousins, sorry for their situation but they are/were indicative of the native Thai populace who frequent local Thai brothels which are not regulated and are not held to the same standard as in the Falang areas. We both know that Thai men are not allowed inside foreign bars, unless employed in them. It is very sad but at the end of the day the Thai government loves Falang dollars more than Thai people. Falang can leave and go back home, you cannot.
“terrified. so fucking terrified.”
Lighten the FUCK up. 5-10%? Are you out of your fucking mind? Do you know what a 5-10% HIV+ population of hookers would do to tourist numbers? Granted, these women are not the cleanest in all cases but 1-10 infected with HIV?
Let your balls drop, if you cant hang with the big kids stay in Canuck land eh?
How many sex partners have you had that hap open, oozing wounds?
None! I may play the statistics with HIV and STD but would never go that far.
mh. i did write that before really reading into the chances of contracting it. im worried still, but now i know the chances of me getting it are probably at MOST 1 in 10,000, mayybe 1 in 5000 for arguments sake.
not a risk i’ll lose sleep over until i can get tested, but a risk i’d be stupid to ever take again.
i’d say youre an idiot to have sex without a condom every time by choice, everyone makes mistakes, but why run across a busy freeway every day if you dont have to? one day youre bound to get hit.
terrified. so fucking terrified.
The same thing has happened to me, ive been scared so going for a test in the new year, hope we are ok
JOHN
weve got chance on our side, but thank you & heres to our our health
Are you guys aware of the different HIV subtypes? The majority of HIV in Thailand is subtype E which is far more contagious with female to male transmission. It also has a much shorter life expectancy and it harder to treat with medication. Although this is mostly confined to the Northern or rural areas of Thailand, the risk is real and anyone who has unprotected sex with a Thai girl is running a serious risk. Also BYO condoms, Thai condoms are notoriously poor quality and are too small.
I got blown off by a lady boy! I’ didn’t come but I am so so scared that I have HIV!
What should I do? Obviously I will get tested when return
cant even sleep
There are things in life that are much beautiful than a few minutes with a bar girl from Soi cow boy or Nana. I really am sad with the idea of the peoples’ notion of the supreme physical pleasure. Ultimately by the day break, you get a cocktail of fear, remorse and confusion. Whats wrong with these grandpas? You are over 70 and still can’t make out the difference between pleasure and excitement..