The point I was trying to make about the lack of good Thai men is that the good ones are going to get snatched up pretty quick. And when you’re already dealing with a deficit of men to women that means that the pickings are slim to begin with.

But overall, I would say that in most Asian cultures the man is the dominant partner in the relationship. Even back in the west, where so-called Yellow Fever is supposedly rampant, many Asian women are dating white guys specifically because they feel that they are treated better by white men than by Asian men from their own culture.

But looking specifically at Thai culture, yes, I do believe Thai culture contributes to the issue. Obviously, I am simply an observer of Thai culture. Many Thai people could comment on specifics much better than I could. Or maybe they can’t because they’ve only experienced life through a single cultural filter/reference.

To properly cover how culture plays into it though it would take several pages. I don’t offer that as a cop-out but it is a very difficult issue that has its roots in everything from Buddhism to poverty. To cover those issues only on the surface level wouldn’t really be fair.

In terms of your feminism comments I find it just a tad convenient that your definition of feminism includes people into your point of view whether they want the label or not. To be honest, even though I support ‘equal pay, reproductive rights, affordable child care, and fighting sexism’ it doesn’t mean that I view them the same way you do. For instance, I think the way you and I might view equal pay to be two completely different things. We might also have completely different definitions of sexism. To the vast majority of women who wear the label of feminist, even liberal feminist, I’m fairly sure my views would be seen as anything but feminist.

I wonder how do you explain that there aren’t any good Thai men? Is is ‘how society allows them to be’? Is it ‘how they were raised’ (by whom if I may ask, their mother / father?) ? I certainly hope there aren’t many Thai men reading this because these comments come off very patronizing and condescending. Actually, going over this whole Bangkokdiaries.com website, you get the feeling that many authors think that only Farang men and Thai women are worth something; all other human beings are just worthless idiots, to be immediately dismissed. It makes me laugh to see people so convinced of their own superiority and worth. But it’s really sad when you need to put whole categories of people down, like Thai men or Farang women, to justify your choices in life and feel good about yourself.

About feminism. Feminism has many strands, from ecofeminism to Marxist feminism. It’s not about ‘militant feminism’, feminism has always been militant. That is why many women the world over now have the right to vote and divorce, thanks to a militant movement started by Western feminism, in countries where women did decide to regroup and speak up.

The strand of feminism that sees all men as oppressors is called radical feminism. Personally, I am a liberal feminist. And any woman or man who ‘believes in equal pay, reproductive rights, affordable child care, and fighting sexism’ (as you wrote) is a liberal feminist, too, maybe without knowing it. The media images of women waiving their bras in the streets have hijacked the image of feminism, but , just so you know, the majority of feminist movements, media, speakers, articles, etc, are of the liberal strand, and not at all butch lesbians about to cut off every man’s penis.

The point I was making is about recognizing the value and good that feminism has brought to the lives of both men and women. For example, in part due to feminism, the percentage of women in the workforce has increased. This has taken some financial burden off men’s shoulders, enabling them to work less and be at home more. About divorce, I do agree with you: often times, the man loses out and it can be a very unfair process. In Canada, there is a movement called ‘hominisme’ taking care of this. Men are thinking together to reconsider what they want their role as a man to be, and they are fighting together for equality regarding divorce and childcare. If you are francophone and interested, I can send you some links.

Of course it’s true that a man can treat his wife well and still object to being called an oppressor. I’m glad you think so too.

It’s true. There aren’t just any Thai men. Thank you for adding the point.

I was just out with a Thai friend the other night and she told me that she works so much that she rarely has time to go out and meet guys. I asked about the Thai guys she works with and she said “They’re all gay, married, or nobody I would ever have an interest in. Why do you think girls are so desperate to meet farangs? They’re aren’t any Thai guys.”

There’s even a commercial on Thai television for a non-fattening snack that demonstrates exactly that. A group of women is presented a group of men and one by one they eliminate the married, gay, etc. and there are several girls standing there and only 2 or 3 guys. And those guys aren’t really the creme of the crop. The commercial ends telling women they better take care of their bodies so they can get a man.

And I really think that’s why so many Thai/farang relationships end up working out well for both people. The Thai woman finds a man who treats her far better than a Thai man might and the farang man finds a woman who will treat him far better than a farang woman might.

That’s the reality of the culture. I’m not saying it’s fair but it is what it is.

In terms of your backhanded defense of feminism, men aren’t necessarily opposed to female equality. The part you seem to forget is that our fathers and grandfathers were normally the primary source of income for the family (which also tends to be the case in most Thai/farang marriages). The reason they helped out less at home was the job of the wife was to be the housewife. Now that you have more two income families men help out more because women are taking on a different role. That has changed the role of the man.

And where you get the ridiculous comment that men in the past didn’t spend much time with their children I have no idea. I can’t even believe that you wrote that. In most of Europe the number of working hours has decreased over the last several decades. So, yeah, if you were working an average 60 hour work week in 1960 and you’re working 35 hours in 2007 then men will be at home more and thus spend more time with their families. That has absolutely nothing to do with feminism. In the US and some other select counties, the exact opposite has happened. People are working harder and longer which means they’re spending less time with their children than their fathers and grandfathers did. If anything, in the dual-income world we live in today, it’s the women who are spending less time with their children.

Listen, I can appreciate the goals of the original feminism movement but the problem with most movements is that it’s hard for them to wind down as they approach their goal. Too much political power has been gained. Too much money is involved. They start lashing out at even the appearance of injustice whether it actually exists or not.

And pretty soon even people who supported the original cause find themselves in the cross hairs. And when things get pushed to far the targets start pushing back.

So what we call bullshit is not the goal of feminism but militant feminism. It’s one thing to say that women should get an equitable distribution in a divorce, it’s quite another thing to push for laws which institutionalize an unfair settlement as if financially destroying a man today somehow makes up for unfair laws that existed 100 years ago.

And I picked the divorce example for a specific reason. Most men who are violently opposed to feminism are guys who have been divorced or have grown up in a family where a divorce has occured. It’s become such a one-sided process in the western world that today in the US a man has to pay child support even if his wife cheated on him and he can provide DNA evidence proving that the child is not his.

Even today, many women are rejecting feminism. They still believe in equal pay, reproductive rights, affordable child care, and fighting sexism but they reject what the feminist movement has become; a philosophy based on the premise of male oppression. Many of the women who are rejecting today’s feminism look at all of the male bashing and other rhetoric and find that it doesn’t represent how they feel.

So your statements about how incongruent it seems for men to say they feel good about treating women well but being opposed to feminism is really an unfair comparison. What’s next, being opposed to today’s brand of feminism automatically means I don’t think women should have the right to vote? One does not necessarily follow the other.

A man can treat his wife well AND still object to being called an oppressor.

There should be more Thai women who think like you in the aspect of how to improve their situation. I have had quite several talks with my Thai friends about Thai men vs Thai women. Most of them just shrugged their shoulders and said it just how Thai men acted. You see, this is the attitude of most Thai women. If there can change the way they think, it’s great. But if they don’t want to, oh well.

Why don’t I want to unite with Thai women to make a change? I can only think that it’s because I’m too selfish to sacrafice my enegy and my time for the greater good. I still have a lot of things to do rather than banging my head against the wall. And as for competing, I would only do it for the right price and for the right cost. If I end up getting nothing, then I’ll still survive. I mean I won’t we the only woman in the world who stays single for the rest of my life anyway.

However, thank you for wishing me luck though. With my attitude I have on love and mariage, I’m definitely going to need it.

Here we are launched into the Thai men vs Farang men debate!! Actually it was not really my intention because I think there are great guys in all countries, and idiots too. So it’s best to be open to finding love anywhere, with any nationality. But I guess it’s not easy if you’ve accumulated only bad experiences with Thai men.

I think it’s too bad that you don’t wish to unite with other Thai women to obtain more respect from Thai men, but instead you prefer to compete with one another for the few Farangs. In the long-term, it means that your daughter will face the same issue of sexism and shortage of good men in Thailand. It also means that you are preparing for a tough fight with other Thai women. Because, given the statistics of this article, there are more Thai women wanting a Farang, than actual (unmarried) Farangs in Thailand.

I don’t mean to judge you with these comments, please don’t take it that way. I have a lot of love for Thailand and think everyday that Thai women deserve better than what they generally get in life. So that’s why I ‘m always thinking of how their situation can improve and this is part of my work. But I’m glad we can exchange our (differing) views on this subject.

I wish you the best of luck in your search. I hope you find that Farang love of your life.
S.

Thank you for your suggest. I’m aware that Western men are not always role models. I’ve dated them enough to call many of then jerks. It’s true indeed that Thai men should change. The sad thing is changing Thai men as a whole is not something I’m not willing to put up with since it requires Thai women to gather and resist. And like you said, Thai women are not so mobilized. So, yes, I would prefer to compete for farang men around which I have no problem with it. Better yet, I’m willing to be alone if I have to.

Frankly, I have never been in a serious relationship with any Thai men in my life. They scared me away since I was a little girl by showing me how they usually treat women. They scared me even worse just in the dating state. Also, when I was old enough to learn about the world, I realized many Thai men labelled me as “undesirable” when compared to a light skin girl. I used to be told all the time that I would be much more beautiful if my skin was lighter. The only two Thai peole who always disagree and tell me how beautiful I am with brown skin are my parents! I once had a random Thai guy trying to hook up with me with a pick-up line saying “your skin isn’t so light, so you’re not that pretty, but I’ll date you if you’re interested”. I had to resist the urge to punch him in the face.

This is just a few little samples of my experience in two decades and a half. I could keep going all week long if I must. I’m not saying Western guys beat Thai men in every way. There are good Thai men out there, I’m sure. My father is one of them (My mom is damn lucky!) Unfortunately, there seem to be so few of them that I rather find a farang guy or just be alone for the heck of it.

I do believe that things in Thailand will change for the better somday, but I’m not optimistic enough to say that it will be anytime soon.

lol. Althought I don’t live with my parents and have actually had more than two boyfriends, I still find your description to be much fit.

Also, thank you for your kind offer which I will gladly take it anytime. For me, it’s been entertaining and thought-provoking exchanging comments with you through many articles on this website. Therefore, I believe it wouldn’t be much different in person.

In your interesting post, you complain about the way Thai men are. I’ve met many Thai and other SEA women who speak very poorly of their male counterparts. It’s a sad thing. So please allow me some suggestions.

1. Try to ensure that men in your country change (though this will not be easy). Asian men will probably not change by themselves and decide alone that they should respect women more. Through your words and your actions, you must demand that men respect you. This means, for example, raising your children in a gender-equal way. When I see a Thai woman complaining that her husband does no housework, and the next minute she’s telling her daughter to clean the dishes and her son that he can play, it just doesn’t add up.
OR
2. Continue complaining about Thai men, avoid them at all costs, and compete with other Asian women for the few Farangs around.

In Africa and in Latin America, women are really organized and motivated to fight machismo, and they’re changing the way men treat women. Asian women can do that, too, but somehow they’re not as mobilized as in Africa or Latin America. C’mon, girls!!! You know Thai men’s hearts are full of kindness and love, too. Let’s seek that out, instead of condemning them.

I’ve read several posts here that show that Farang men are happy, if not proud, about the fact that they treat Thai women better than Thai men do. However you must know that Farang men were not always role models in their treatment of women. In the West, feminism has demanded that men contribute more to house chores and child-rearing, pushing men to be more aware of their role as caring partner and father. And indeed, many Western men now spend more time with their children, or cleaning the house, than their fathers did, and that’s a very attractive trait to all women, Thai or Farang.
(At the same time, it’s ironic that some Farang men in BKK are proud to be considered as such, and at the same time condemn feminism as ‘bullshit’ , refusing to recognize the link between these 2 things. )

Well, Dariya, Thai people have a long way to go to establish good, trusting, caring relations between men and women. That’s something your post confirms. But you seem like a smart person and I believe eventually, things will improve.

In peace,
S.