On being a Western woman in Thailand

It is not always easy being a Western woman in Thailand, I know: I’ve been here for over 10 years. On this Bangkok Diaries website alone, the amount of slander and hate-talk directed at Western women is a good representation of the larger anti-Western women dynamics in the country. In addition, I have seen innumerable Western women being broken as their relationship and family tears apart. It is a fact that very few Western couples can survive several years in the Land of Smiles.

Upon arriving in Thailand, many Western men become like small boys in a candy shop, realizing they can afford all the prettiest sweets on the shelf. Oh the excitement of it all! And the predictable happens. Husband is walking along the Bangkok streets, perhaps after an argument with his wife, perhaps not. Chances are he will rapidly cross paths with a gogo bar, or a smiling Thai girl who will apply all her charm to seduce him. Many Thai girls know what they are doing in this area. Indeed, they can even make an obese Farang believe that he looked like the ideal hybrid of Brad Pitt and Robbie Williams as he blared out “My Way” on the karaoke. If the said Farang has sufficiently low self-awareness and sufficiently inflated ego, and a few drinks in him, it will work every time!

Generally speaking, Thai women are trained to always look pretty, talk softly and relentlessly work on their ‘Wife Curriculum Vitae’ from birth. This includes demonstrating your ability to artfully arrange cookies on the platter, and to spoon-feed living creatures of any age. From an early age, many Thai women are made to believe that their beauty is their biggest asset for reaching success, as my years teaching kindergarten in Bangkok have led me to notice. In brief, Thai women receive a very different education than that of your average modern Western woman.

Western women, growing up after the feminist revolution, have been taught that they need to be strong and tough to reach success. We have learned to play in the boys’ court and by the boys’ rules. We have proven that we can also play the ‘Competition for Power’ game including in the political and economic arenas. And Western feminist courage and thought have in fact benefited men and women the world over. The International Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women has allowed for the increased protection of Thai women in their homes, workplaces, and public arena since 1985.

The point is: Western women have much to be proud of, and they mustn’t apologize for who they are. In Thailand, a Western woman will be made to feel worthless and small. Maybe her ‘Wife CV’ isn’t as good her Thai neighbour’s is. Maybe, after giving birth to 2-3 children, her waistline will be more like her husband’s than a young Thai lady’s. Farang men will constantly denigrate us as arrogant, bitchy, ugly, worthless human beings. Such Farang men clearly have major issues: a sense of entitlement (to sex and dinner, for example), a heightened sense of self-worth (“I am better than my ugly wife”), and a loathing for Western women. Generally, this is accompanied by despise for Thai men, something shared by their Thai wife (“I am better than Thai men”).

In the face of such hate, I sometimes feel so sad, scared, almost crazy. But, there is no need to despair! Western women in Thailand can find a great deal of compassion and companionship from each other. Thai men also have something to offer. Most young Western women have experienced being pursued, if not stalked, by Thai men. A Thai boyfriend will take care of you in a very different way to Western men. Thais have a lot of qualities to offer, such as a devotion to their parents and families, which is too often lacking in Western men. A successful relationship between a Western woman and Thai man is possible: I know of one that has lasted for over 30 years.

Western women and Thai women have a lot to learn from each other. Beyond learning to cook Tom Ka Gai, your Thai female neighbour can probably teach you a lot about taking it easy *jai yen*, or the importance of regular selfless acts *kreng jai*. Upon request, many Western women like me can also give crash-courses on how to be strong, arrogant and bitchy: necessary traits for any woman wanting to make it to top in a man’s world – think Nancy Pelosi, Empress Wu Zetian, Queen Victoria, Margaret Thatcher or Gloria Arroyo. The right to vote, the right to contraception and abortion, weren’t won by sweet-lipped women.

Times are changing: increasingly, Asian women are joining in the quest for gender equality. Thai women’s opportunities will continue to broaden, and they will no longer be as inclined to prostitute themselves, or accept balding Farangs as the most desirable husband. Whether such Farang-Thai partnerships are ‘bad’ or ‘good’ is not my concern. But my 10 years in Thailand have shown that many Farang men will ultimately be disappointed by their Thai partner. Farang men will whine and bitch about ‘how difficult it is to have an interesting conversation with her’, ‘she’s not as docile as I thought’, etc. These Farangs will often end up estranged or despised by their own children and extended family back in their country. In Thailand, a Western woman may lose her husband. But we keep our children’s love and respect. So let’s not lose our self-confidence and compassion. Our ex-husbands may need some in the future.

115 thoughts on “On being a Western woman in Thailand”

  1. Nicely articulated. What every man wants in a wife, a cross between Nancy Pelosi and Margaret Thatcher. You sure got the measure of me.

  2. Brave to stick your head above the ramparts to stand us for us Western ladies in Thailand, thank you.

  3. Interesting. The only thing I would add is related to your perspective on “Asian women” as a group which could be broadly comparable with Thai women. I think it’s possible to compare Thai women in terms of intellect, self-esteem and position with other women in developing SE Asian nations. However, “young” Asian women in Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan are in a totally different league. They have the same perspective (and frustrations) on Thailand as so-called “Western women”. I work with many of them.

    Also, Thai women are not always so inclined to “prostitute themselves”. They’re families (and the Thai system of being led into work situations by friends) often do it for them. With the average salary for those stuck with a poor education (that means any women without a degree) set at about 200 baht per day, how else can you earn money if you have no resources?

  4. While I think you make some very good points, I think you may be off target with others. I can’t speak for all men. All I can tell you is my perspective on this.

    A Thai wife with three kids is going to look just as good or bad as a farang woman with three kids. In fact, Thais tend to get some very, very noticeable stretch marks due to their size and how much the skin has to expand. The difference is that many Thai women work their asses off (literally) to get back to their pre-pregnancy size. I know farang women try as well but in terms of looking good Thai women have far more will-power and determination than farang women.

    I also think you’re making a bit of a logical error in comparing Nancy Pelosi and Maggie Thatcher to your average farang woman. The vast, vast majority of women are not world leaders (neither are men). It’s a tad overdramatized to suggest your average office worker or other far more typical job needs to have Maggie’s iron balls. The girl working in accounting seldom has the need to stare down the Soviet empire.

    And the Thai Wife CV is not primarily arranging cookies and spoon feeding men (which shows your obvious contempt for Thai women who act like ladies). Typically the number one thing on the list is to be lovely. As a man, you will get much farther telling a Thai woman that she’s lovely than you will telling her she looks sexy or even beautiful.

    I think this is the part many farang women don’t get. They’re so bent on being like Maggie Thatcher that they fail to notice that a Thai woman can wrap a guy around her finger far more effectively than any amount of confrontation or negotiation ever could.

  5. I don’t understand what you’re complaining about. If you want to be a tough, independant, hard-hitting career women than good for you, just don’t complain if its difficult to find a husband. Why bother with a man anyways, when you’re so strong and independant? You devoted all your energy towards career success and none towards being an attractive partner, so what did you expect?

  6. Interesting post. I enjoyed your perspective. I can only imagine what it would be like to be a Western woman in Thailand. I was disappointed in your closing remark. In the end, all of your arguments ending with spite and contempt. It kind of reinforces the “Western male perspective”
    Certainly not lovely.

  7. I have to agree with Chuck Wow in that you make a valid point and then follow it up with some ugly or contemptuous remark. It basically serves to prove why these so called strong women have such difficulty in relationships. My impression is that you really don’t like men. Not in a lesbian sort of way but that you look down on us. Who wants to be in a relationship with someone who openly displays contempt for their partner?

  8. The Western woman also has the right to rip of hard working husband. And make him feel like a total loser. Treat men like dirt and then complain!! Asia has no welfare system. Asian women are far stronger than their Western counterparts. The difference is in the way they go about it.
    As far as your examples Queen Victoria was in a different era. Many Western women would benefit from having a Thai lover. Learning some manners,tact. would go a long way.
    All Asian countries have different histories South Korea is very status conscious,Singapore,work related,(not pressure to have a boyfriend but to get good grades and a good job.

  9. The kind of guys you’re talking about are unworthy of a self-respecting intelligent woman of any nationality or race.
    If I were a Western woman and I lost my amoral, obese, weak-minded, child-like husband to an off-the-street Thai prostitute he happened to walk by… I’d consider myself lucky to be rid of him….What kind of man is that to be married to?…He belongs married to a ho’…..And I would consider also the state of our relationship was pretty shoddy….for which I might also question myself (and might be at least partly responsible).

    I think what you are talking about here is extramarital sex…which Thai wives don’t get too upset about…unless its in their face. The difference in the cultures on this subject is vast. For example, a “Mia noy” ( minor wife) is so common a creature that the Thai actually have a word for her.

    That all said….there is vast difference between a desperately poor Isan prostitute seeking a Western husband (more accurately his money)….and a self-supporting educated Thai woman looking for love and a family. The man you describe would hardly qualify for the heart of the latter type of Thai woman.

    If I were a Western woman living in Thailand.. who had lost her sex appeal to her husband…but not yet lost her husband… I would try to take a much more liberal approach to the subject of extramarital sex… and hope that I had married a man principled and intelligent enough to know the difference between recreational sex and our marriage relationship….to discriminate between loving someone who cannot even speak the same language… and the woman I had loved and married.

    If your man is so shallow that he cannot mange that….its probably better for you if he f–ks off.

  10. I have heard it many times from some western women: Women’s liberation and “supposed” equality has been more of a negative factor in most women’s life than it has been a positive factor. They tell me they are confused and pressured. They are pressured to be “modern” and must go out and get a job and be “independant” from men. But then, Their “biological clock” is ticking, and around 30 years of age most women are frantically running around trying to have children. I do believe in some of what they are going thru. They have a conflict of trying to be modern and equal by the pressures of the western society, yet their natural self tells them deep inside they would love to be taken care of, and have childern to bring up and love! all with the help of a provider: a man!

    Men’s agenda is fixed at birth, there are no options, they are stuck: you grow up, you get a job, you make some money and may be provide for a family. There is no confusion about men’s purpose in life. I believe this to be the case in ANY society.

    Women, generally speaking, have a tougher time defining themselves in the western world today as explained above.

    There was a mention in the original post of “bald men” and “older men”. That by itself is a judgement made based on age and physical looks of which the author, I think, is against to start with… While I respect the courage of the author, the contradiction of feelings and facts is evidant and somewhat normal and expected.

    Western women DO have their good point compared to Thai women, and I mean Thai women not Asian women in general. There are some MAJOR difference between Thai women and say south Korean women…

    Western women are more independant financialy today (relative to Thai women) and they are “expected” to be more factual and equal (because of their liberation and equality) in the division of family and children reposibilities, even thu it means more work for them.

    While I am sure there are SOME successful Thai man/western woman relationships, and ther are SOME very successfull western women and some successful Thai/Asian women it is more of an accetption to the rule than the rule itself.

    Let’s be honest about SOME farang men who live here or visit frequently, it is because of the nice times they have with Thai women, and that goes for the fat, ugly, handsome, tall and short!!!

    I love it when I see the smiles on an 80 year old man walking on the beach in Pattaya holding on to a cute 20 year old Thai lady who is smiling at him and taking care of him….can he get that in his own country without being shouted at? Is he paying for it? yes he is, but he also paid for it dearly back home and got nothing out of it, again generallt speaking…

    Don’t worry Be happy 🙂

  11. Kevin, I think your comment is deadly accurate. Many western women don’t seem to understand that back home your husband had very limited choices so it was better for him to stay in a marriage he wasn’t totally happy with but could get sex semi-regularly than going out into the unknown. In Thailand, sex is guaranteed. You can’t avoid it. So now that the guy sees his expanded options he rids himself of the relationship he wasn’t really happy in and moves on to another.

    A guy who is happily married might play around but he would never leave his wife. I have friends of mine who live here and will go with a girl here and there but when I’ve asked them how they can do that if they have their wife waiting at home and they all pretty much give the same answer. Their wife is the person they love. The person they trust. The person that is the mother of their children. They would never give that up for some sex.

    Unfortunately, western women who lose their husbands here simply don’t get the fact that they already lost him a long time ago. The only difference is that he didn’t have other options.

    That is the thing about Thailand. It’s not like a kid in the candy store. It’s like a kid who’s been fed turd sandwiches his whole life being shown a menu in a restaurant. When you have choice, it’s empowering. And that’s what makes farang women so angry here. Men have a choice. And the choice they make is to dump their farang gf or wife.

    Farang women don’t want to accept that responsibility for the failure of their relationships. They blame those Thai bitches or try to make every guy into a pathetic loser who couldn’t get laid back home. That’s far more soothing to the ego than acknowledging that if her man was happy in the relationship he would never even think of leaving his wife/gf.

    Back home, guys have very limited choices. If you’re married, 30-something years old, etc. what are your options? You can bang your secretary but that’s about it. Your wife tells you when to come home, wants to know where you’re going, and seldom lets you go out and play with your single friends. That’s her way of controlling the pussy available to you. If you aren’t being exposed to a lot of available pussy then the value of her pussy skyrockets.

    And if you have the pussy monopoly you can use it as a carrot and a stick. If your hubby does something you like you reward him with access to the pussy. If he does something you dislike you withhold access.

    And that is basically keeps most western relationships together. The fear of losing the pussy. Most men fear going out into the dating pool and having to deal with all of the rejection and frustration. But in Thailand, you’re all but guaranteed to get laid if you so choose.

    And that, my dear, is what you farang women don’t like. When presented a viable option a guy who is not happy in his relationship will dump you. If he was still in love with you he might fool around but he would never leave you.

    That’s why feminist farang women are so upset about us losers who could never get laid back home and our Thai bitch girlfriends. It forces them to come to the realization that all of this female empowerment and assertiveness isn’t really working. Back home you have men trapped so in order to get laid they have no other option. When they have options they almost universally choose, not you.

    That’s why people like the author want to empower all women. They want to bring everyone down to their level (yes, “down to their level” is intentional). If Thai women would only act like farang women, farang women would be competing on a level playing field.

    It’s like the economist Thomas Sowell once said, if the wage gap between men and women was only attributable to sex then all you would have to do is create a company comprised of only women and they would dominate in their field due to the free 3% – 5% profit margin they would be getting. The reason that has never happened is because the wage gap is a factor of things other than sex.

    That may seem off point but I think it illustrates how out of touch the average farang feminist views are. Don’t blame your broken marriage on yourself, blame the Thai bitches who stole your husband. Don’t blame the wage gap on higher costs to the employer (maternity leave, women live longer so collect more in pension, etc), blame it on sexism.

    I’ll just sum this up by saying that it’s very telling that a Thai woman would have written an article on how hard it is to find a good man in Thailand. A farang woman writes an article about how hard it is to find a man who deserves her.

  12. @BigBabyKenny: Thanks for telling us. Hopefully you positioned it so it follows one of your posts chronicling how one can bang girls under 18 legally.

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  14. You sound like the kind of uppity white chick it’s been my pleasure the past few years to naturally select not to receive my sperm. Good luck to your genome.

  15. BKK Blue – interesting read – what remains true, and will never change, is that men and women think differently. This suggests that any attempt to make one side see the other sides point of view is ultimately doomed.
    Something you might appreciate however is this. When I first came to Thailand and noticed the women being ‘all feminine’ towards the men-folk I also noticed that the men responded by being ‘all gentlemanly’ – These exchanges were reminiscent of better times when mutual respect was much more valued than it is today. I hardly need say… the men love being given this level of respect and mostly they can’t wait to give it back.
    Perhaps western women might consider competing with men by being women. It seems to me that trying to be a ‘ball-buster’ is self-defeating and is responsible for most of the negative comments you hear about ‘western women’ from Thai savvy farang.
    Mort did indeed put it well.

  16. The Western men who choose to stay in Thailand long-term are, generally speaking, not particularly representative of Western men in general. We are a self-selected group, many of whom have had bad experiences with women in the West (just got out of a nasty, lawyer-fueled divorce, etc.). That is probably the reason for the abuse you experience. Having said that, the antagonistic relationship between male and female Western expatriates is prevalent all over Asia.

    Without intending any offense, I do believe that many of us are refugees from the prevalent brand of Western feminism, where so many women seem to have a chip on their shoulder and view men in general as The Enemy. We have to walk on eggs to avoid offense and keep from having the fashionable “buzz words” unjustly attached to us if we dare, even for a moment, drop the politically correct pretense that we are non-sexual beings (“sexual predator”, “stalker”, etc.). It’s the new Puritansim.

    These days Romeo woud be sued for sexual harassment, and Juliet would be sentenced to 150 hours of Assertiveness Training for failing to tell Romeo just where he could shove it with all that paternalistic crap. The only difference between men and women in the US these days seems to be the plumbing. Many refugees from feminism are dealing with it all by going gay (after all, why bother with an imitation man when you can have a real one?) – hence the strength of the gay lobby with its focus on gay marriage, etc. Other men deal with it by moving to Asia.

    In order to be fair, though, jealous men often use all the right buzzwords against their male competition (“She said you’ve been sexually harassng her…” No she didn’t. You’re just trying to encourage your competition to vanish.) Whatever your shortcomngs, it’s we, the Western men, who drove you to it.

  17. Farangwomenphuket

    I’ve been in Thailand for 9 years and I am so over the whole ‘Farang Women hate debate’. I lived in Bangkok for 4 years and ‘lost’ my husband to a Thai women. While I was totally blindsided, it’s like like Mort indicated if there were not problems in the marriage before he would never have left. However, unlike Mort’s comment, I do accept responsibility for the failure of my marriage.

    I chose to remain in Thailand after my divorce and am blessed to witness the new man my ex-husband has become. He is a wonderful father to our child a happier man. He lives with a wonderful Thai women who loves our child as much as we do. I’ve learnt to find a ‘new’ way to love this man and am 100% supportive of his life choices.

    I on the other hand, have not turned into a man hating farang lesbian who thinks all Thai women are whoreing themselves to farang men who are too ugly to get a women in their own country. I love this country, I love the people (there is good and bad in every country), I being able to work, support my daughter and afford the freedom to pursue my love of sports.

    Yes it’s lonely at times however there are always Farang (unmarried) men out there who can ‘scratch an itch’ if needed.

    I only wish there were more men here who could see that, while there are some beautiful Thai women here in Thailand, there are also some kind, happy and healthy secure and peaceful Farang women.

    At the end of the day we are all just seeking to be happy….

  18. @Farangwomenphuket: I apologize if I made it sound as if I was talking about “all” farang women.

    I’m glad to see that you’ve been able to move on with your life and that your husband has become a better father from the experience. To be completely honest, if a guy ends up with a Thai girl for the right reasons, they tend to be much better husbands and fathers. That’s just my opinion but the Thai women treat them so well that they in turn begin treating those around them better.

    I think many of us do recognize that there are women like you here but you are definitely in the minority. And even then who are the ones who go from website to website demonizing both the men as well as the Thai women? That’s why I think men instinctively become defensive and confrontational with farang women here. We’re simply used to having to defend ourselves from being assaulted by these types of women.

    I was at a party not too long ago and there was a farang woman who was on extended holiday here. A male friend had invited her to the party and she was the only white girl there. I tried to be friendly with her and we began chatting. She said “Wow, I’m really surprised that everyone has been so nice to me tonight. I heard from all these women that no white guys would even speak to me and that the Thai women would probably want to fight me in the bathroom.” I asked her where she heard such nonsense and she told me from other farang women she had met in Thailand.

    She even went on to talk about how not only had a lot of guys talked to her but that the Thai girls were totally fascinated with her. They looked up to her. Knowing the girls who were at the party, I would say she probably was right. The Thai girls at the party don’t meet many farang women though they admire their strength from what they see on television and the movies. I’m fairly sure more than a few wanted to meet her and try to “learn her secrets.” LOL

    But, I think the thing that set her apart and made her approachable was the fact that she didn’t come in acting superior. She didn’t come to the party with a chip on her shoulder. She just brought with her a great attitude and a willingness to experience something different.

    I ran into the same girl several months later at another party. She was still as upbeat as the night I met her and I would later learn she had been seeing two of the guys who were at the party. She had made friends with a few of the Thai girls she met at the first party and they yapped away most of the night.

    What makes her different is her attitude. She was a really cool person to hang out with. Physically she wasn’t my type but I could see why guys would be interested in her because she was fun to be around. She could make you laugh, carry on a good conversation, and most importantly, she wasn’t so full of herself that she felt she had to be better than everyone around her. She wasn’t sitting around waiting for guys to fall all over themselves to buy her drinks. She was going around and trying to meet people. She wasn’t looking at the Thais as dirty little whores who were her competition but as fantastically interesting people she wanted to learn more about.

    So yes, I can believe there are women like you and her out there. We just wish that so many of the other type weren’t out there. 🙂

  19. Listen (or read) this: I started dating this teacher lady. Went out four times, everytime the bill came to pay for the food, she would expect me to pay. I decided to play along and see what happend. My limit was 20 Euros or about $30 after which I told her that the next coffee will be on her…She looked at me in shock and said : Well, you will have to take me out 40 times before I even “think” to buy you a cup of coffee….This is the same feminatzy that told me how she believes in equality and same pay for both sexes, men and women are the same but women are better because they can have children and men can not bullshit…

    Well, needless to say I was pissed, so I decided to fuck with her. Next time I took her on my motorcycle for coffee. While she was at the bathroom I decided I had paid the last money for this wonderful woman and I took off and left her behind. I do not know, nor do I care, how she got back to her car…

    Yes, it was mean, but some Feminazy women have to learn not to fuck with men!

    I do not think I need to do that to a Thai lady…not yet anyway 🙂

  20. Farangwomenphuket

    @Mort – I appreciate your positive feedback.

    I think it’s fairly safe to say that the women and men who choose to be so negative and judgmental on this subject are most likely unhappy people and would find something to complain about no matter what country they live in.

    I also can appreciated Farang men living in Thailand not being attracted to farang women. We are different and I as a Farang female am not attracted to Thai men. So it works both ways.

    At the end of the day if they (men and women alike) are not happy with the dynamics of Thai life then there is always an alternative…they can go home. As for me I think I’ve done enough work for the day and might go to the beach with my little girl while my beautiful sweet thai maid gets dinner ready and cleans my house….life is good for this Farang. 🙂

  21. @Farangwomenphuket: Like I said, you go girl. More power to ya for being happy here. 🙂

    I don’t think it’s as simple as you make it though. Yes, there are people who are unhappy and will be unhappy no matter where they go but as far as us men go I think a lot of the negative reaction towards farang women has to do with how we were treated by them back home.

    For a lot of guys, they’ve spent their entire lives being treated like shit. Look at mando6971’s comment. While I think he’s taken it a little too far, the fact remains that this woman thinks that she should be equal in everything but have her ass kissed too.

    Is it any big mystery why a relationship doesn’t work out when a woman tells you that you have to take her out 40 times before she’ll spring for one time yet she wants in all other ways to be treated as an equal? This isn’t a freak one-off. This is pretty common sort of stuff. A friend of mine was telling me just today about going out back home the other night and some girl he was standing next to in the bar asked him to buy her a drink and he said “Why don’t we buy each other a drink and get to know each other a little better first.” She laid into him calling him a cheap son of a bitch and informed him that she was going to give him a shot at her pussy that night but now he’d blown it.

    I could write pages and page of my own experiences that are similar and sometimes worse than this as well as give you a library’s worth of reading from other men who have been treated like this as well. It can range from the girls who use you in school because you’re smart and they flirt and come on to you to do their homework or help them cheat and then freeze you out or the little bitch in the bar who tells you to fuck off for simply walking up and saying “hello.”

    As a man back home, that’s the reality we live in. I’m not saying people should start a charity for us or anything but you do 30, 40, 50 years on this earth being treated like shit by the other sex and . . . it sort of winds you up.

    So, on a certain level I can understand the feelings of a lot of guys. I do wish they would be more careful in delineating between those women and all farang women but I’m sure they all have mothers and sisters and sometimes even daughters so I just assume that they do consider some women different 🙂

    Mort

  22. Farangwomenphuket

    @mort trust me I totally understand where you are coming from….who’d want to date a bitch like mando6971 encountered! Some women have no idea! I personally believe that if your going to enter into a relationship with someone it should be a partnership. The dynamic of the partnership is very different here in Thailand and that is ok as well. If it works and both people are happy then who are we to judge.

    In saying that I would like to pose the question though…how many Thai women don’t have the same expectation that their date would pay for dinner for not only them but for their sister and best friend that they also brought along. Ok maybe they are not as harsh as those western women who ‘expect’ this kind of treatment but there is no such thing as a free lunch, even with Thai women. I am sure you have heard plenty of these stories as well.

    Anyway, it is what it is and I understand both sides of the arguement. I live with it and am expose to it every day. I only hope that from this discussion that at least some people can understand that there are some exceptions to the ‘western women rule’ and that if there is any Farang man out there that would like to buy me dinner….well he’d only have to pay for 39 of them! xx

  23. I think we are discussing more of a general rule here than the exception to the rule. Yes, there are SOME wonderful women out there…. but very few. Generally speaking, western women have it for the guys. The rules and laws of their society take the woman side. Have you heard of the “three sceond rule” in Chicago? Ask me and I’ll tell you.

    Yes, Thai women will bring their friend and mom and sister to have the farang pay for lunch, but they put out with no atitude, again generally speaking.

    This is not a matter of understanding both sides of the argument. Mostly it is about right and wrong!!!! It is wrong for women to want to : have their cake, eat their cake AND not have to PAY for their cake!

    It is wrong for women to get back at their divorced husbends by taking their children away and their money away just because “she can and the law allows it”…

    It is wrong for women to use sex as a weapon to control men!

    It is wrong for women to treat men like shit when men are still doing a lot of the work in this world. Do not tell me women contribute, of course they do. But since history began, men have done 99% of the inventions, hard work…etc…etc…

    Ok, We do have choices and most men on this forum have chosen not to put up with western women shit, go to Asia and treat women well, as well as be treated by Asian women like they need to be…with respect….

    Yes, men will always pay for sex just as women will always pay sex for money…think about it: it works! and I like it 🙂

  24. @Farangwomenphuket:
    Re-reading all that has been said including other women who have been raised in the west on this subject. There seems to be the argument that a man should not have choices. In the US there is great pressure to “couple up” and for men to abhor “lookism”.
    Now I look like Homer Simpson. The women here (Colorado) ignore me like I do not exist. I am treated with contempt and disdain. I am human. I have feelings.
    It would be no wonder that if anyone with my background of ill treatment were to come to a place when all of a sudden: I am treated by attractive women as desirable,that I or anyone male or female would react reciprocally?
    That is why your paragraph: ” Upon arriving in Thailand, many Western men become like small boys in a candy shop, realizing they can afford all the prettiest sweets on the shelf. Oh the excitement of it all! And the predictable happens. Husband is walking along the Bangkok streets, perhaps after an argument with his wife, perhaps not. Chances are he will rapidly cross paths with a gogo bar, or a smiling Thai girl who will apply all her charm to seduce him. Many Thai girls know what they are doing in this area. Indeed, they can even make an obese Farang believe that he looked like the ideal hybrid of Brad Pitt and Robbie Williams as he blared out “My Way” on the karaoke. If the said Farang has sufficiently low self-awareness and sufficiently inflated ego, and a few drinks in him, it will work every time!” Is so mistaken. Humans the world over want this, that is why so many European women travel to Africa to sample the young muscled men there who like them. Any person would react favorably to being desired. Especially away from the closed social environment that is the West.

  25. Lived in the UK long enough to know many young nice looking women who frequently go to Spain or Portugal and sample seme of the “Hot Dark Meat” over there, only to come back home and give men tons of shit just for looking at a nice girl walking by , saying how “discussting men are” and how men think only with their dicks “ALL” the time…

    Well, it is somewhat true: men, by design, think of their dicks a lot, but considering what men have achieved througout histroy in the form of: inventions, science, education, medicine, indusrty, cooking (yes, the best cooks are men!), fashion, space travel, psychologysts, doctors…etc..etc…I think most educated people will agree that men have done a lot even though they have their minds on their dicks!!! Can you imagine what they could have done if they did not think of their dicks a lot????

    BTW, just to let you people know, I am not aiming my comments at the originator of this thread, I am just expressing my opinion in GENERAL!!!

    They are nasty men out there just as well as nasty women and in all cultures, but I repeat my self: generally speaking, Most western women have lost their sense of reality and they are in a world of denial…..

    What Asia has shown me is that what I felt growing up in the west has always been true but was supressed by the western culture…Free at last, Free at last 🙂 🙂

  26. Hi all, thanks for your comments on the post.
    @ Bangkok girly: cheers 🙂
    @Leosia: I agree with your comments on Japanese, Korean women, and what you say about prostitution. Maybe “prostitute themselves” was not the right phrasing, I didn’ t mean to say that most prostitutes have a real choice to do something else than become prostitutes.
    @Ruai: you say “Thai women have more willpower and determination to look attractive than Western women.” Yeah, I generally agree with that, and that is part of the point I was making. You also say “I have noticed that Thai women can wrap a Farang around their finger without confrontation”: sure, I have noticed too!! Finally, I don’t think that spoon-feeding people is part of my definition of “Acting like a lady”. What’ s lady-like is socially constructed. Some would say spoon-feeding is more like acting like a slave/servant/nurse. Basically your statement is as flawed as this one: “Being spoon-fed is man-like”.
    @ Chuck Wow, Billy Bangkok: thanks for remaining polite, despite our obvious differences! Well, you are right that I’ve got some spite in me but I definitely don’ t hate men. What do you call “contemptuous remarks”? Is it about the Wife CV? If so, I’d like you to show me one Thai woman who hasn’t ever felt pressured to pep up that CV and actively display it in social settings. Sure, some Thai women enjoy cooking and artfully arranging biscuits, I do too. The point is that some Thai women’ don’t enjoy it, but they are pressured to do it anyway and the Wife CV is a symptom of the oppression of women and the patriarchal forces that maintain women as housewives.
    @Farangwomenphuket: it’s lovely to read you, and I wish I were more like you.
    @Mort: interesting carrot/pussy metaphor, it’s pretty revealing of the way you experience sex.
    @Danny.Nomad: Actually I am not divorced nor ever married, the ex-husband story is a semi-fiction. And guess what, I have both the fulfilling career and the wonderful boyfriend. It’ s not necessarily one or the other as your post implies. Thanks for that, feminists.
    @Rio: about your statement “Asian women are stronger than their counterparts”. Where does this idea come from, what evidence do you have? Did you know that in the UK, Asian women have a three times higher suicide rate than any other ethnic women group? In the US it is the same (there are no such statistics for within Thailand, unfortunately). That doesn’t really seem coherent with your image of Thai/Asian culture as empowering for women, or as cultures that bring strength to women. Real strength is sustainable and deeply ingrained, it enables you to adapt to different cultures and countries, it doesn’t put you straight in the “most miserable people” category when you emigrate.
    @ Stinky Farang: I wear a Thai “Small” Jeans, so the “Fat ass” comment is REALLY off the mark… sadly, coz I do wish my ass were bigger!
    @swampthing: the pleasure is all mine.

  27. Actually you are mistaken culture. There are many thing in Asian culture that does not appear in Western. The suicide taboo is not the same. My evidence is from you own writings and from native Asian I know and have known. The Cultures have had differences over the ages. Speaking of women in Norse and Some asian countries where women were warriors then relegated to hearth and home as the country grew.
    I spirit these Asian women are on average stronger. But their life has no social security or social safety net. For many survival is paramount.
    From all indications gender manners and tact in the West seem to be missing.
    The wife Cv has me ROFL! I went to college where the females were distaned because so many were there for their Mrs. degree!!!
    I can sympathize with the “fat Ass” remark because so many of the women here in the US are obese!!!

  28. Rio,
    Agreed, there are many differences between Western cultures and Asian cultures. But in both cases, suicide is a taboo. It is strictly forbidden in Christianity. Buddhism discourages it, but, depending on what part of Asia you are talking about, in some cases it’s not so taboo. Consider the Zen Buddhism Samurai tradition.
    About social security, definitely it’ s a big issue in Asia for men and women.
    Yet when they arrive in the UK/UK, Asian migrants are afforded the same protection as migrants from Africa, the Middle East or Latin America. So that can’t explain the higher suicide rate.
    As for Warrior Asian Women, I say go girls! One of my favorite stories is about Princess Urduja of the Philippines. According to the legend, she decided that she would only marry a man AT LEAST as good as her. I’ll let you guess what happened next 😉

  29. First off, let me say that I am not a fan of public spoon feeding. I think it’s moronic and isn’t really Thai. What you’re seeing is usually some form of prostitute buttering up her victim. In some cases women just do it because they are ultra-subservient but my guess is most of the cases I’ve seen are clearly working girls. And I think if you asked around some Thai women they would tell you they don’t think it has anything to do with culture or anything else.

    That said, my gf has a habit of wanting me to taste everything she orders. So if you see us eating in a restaurant you might see her offering me a taste of everything she’s eating but she’s not really feeding me. She knows if she leaves it to me to take it from her plate I probably won’t and she’s determined that I broaden my palate for Thai food. I would say 9 times out of 10 she’ll just put the food on my plate but every so often she’ll shove the spoon or fork in my face if she thinks I won’t eat it even if it’s on my plate. She’s never done that when we have farang food. Though she does enjoy stealing food off of my plate if it’s something she likes. 🙂

    I asked my gf about spoon feeding and she looked a little puzzled. I was able to explain it to her and she’s seen it too. She said “I don’t know why. It’s not a Thai thing. Maybe the girl really, really loves the guy or maybe his arms don’t work.”

    But my comments about being lady like were not about spoon feeding. Like I said, for Thai women they strive to be lovely to be around. That means having pleasant manners, speaking politely (to everyone, not just her man), and being entertaining. Those qualities are often mistaken for being subservient.

  30. Thanks for the Princess Urduja reference. I was raised by a warrior woman and i am a Historian interested in Warrior Women. I watch Asian Movies that have such characters. Hu Mulan, (cn), Princess Jo Myung Go, Jumong( Korea)
    I am interested in any historical references.
    “Ruai”
    Has a point:
    “Thai women they strive to be lovely to be around. That means having pleasant manners, speaking politely (to everyone, not just her man), and being entertaining. Those qualities are often mistaken for being subservient.”
    In my opinion most people of either gender would prefer to be around well mannered individuals. Being liked an seen as attractive is a very powerful feeling. I am not talking about the lust feeling but knowing that you are liked,accepted,respected all in one non-verbal communication.
    It is interesting in the West Warrior women are part of the “hidden histories” yet it is known the there were many. Any films or study materials that you know of would be appreciated.

  31. One of the most powerful men in Hollywood used to be Michael Ovitz. He was the head of CAA (Creative Artists Agency) and his firm represented a majority of the highest paid talent in Hollywood. Whether it be actors, writers, directors, or whatever his firm represented those people and if you wanted them in your movie you paid Ovitz’s price or you made due with someone else.

    But every single bio piece I’ve ever seen written on the guy says that his power came not in showing it but in burying it. A common phrase was “he can make you feel like you’re the only person in the world.” He was famous for his ability to make people feel important and appreciated.

    Bill Clinton was often said to have a similar effect on people. Many people who have met him have commented on the fact that he had a great ability for remembering small details and in a room full of the world leaders he could make even the least important person feel like the most important by simply having took the time to remember that your favorite author is so and so.

    A friend of mine once told me about his mother who was a devout Catholic. He had arranged for her to be at some function at which the pope (John Paul II) would be attending. When he entered the room there was a long line of people waiting to greet him. When he got to my friend’s mother she fell to her knees clutching his hands and said “Please father, pray for me and my family.” He told her “Woman, don’t kneel before me. It is I who should be asking you to pray for me.”

    If you sense a common theme here it’s that many of the most powerful people in the world have become so by showing great humility and respect for others. They know that making others feel important is not subservient but powerful. No one can argue that Ovitz couldn’t be just like every other agent in Hollywood and pound the table and yell and expect everyone to cower to his demands. Clinton was far too important of a world figure to be bothered with the details of some second level dignitary. And the pope could easily have just smiled and moved on.

    Anybody who thinks that Thai women are subservient knows absolutely nothing about true power.

  32. Ruai, I wish I could agree with you, but it seems my pair of glasses are less rosy than yours. I’m not sure the comparison between Thai women subservience and Michael Ovitz or Bill Clinton’s charisma is valid (because there are so many other complex factors like social class, age, gender that come into play). And when you talk of subservience as power, do you mean in a relationship context, or in a broader socio-economic context?

    In my idea of a loving relationship, there is no power game, there is no subservience-as-power (well, that’s what I’m aiming for, still a way to go 😉 ). There is a difference between being subservient and being sweet and kind. Sure, subservience can be used to exert a manipulative form of influence. But in my relationship experience, games of submission/power lead to dominance and control issues that eventually destroy the couple. Anyway, you may have noticed the explosion on the internet of biblical womanhood “I chose to be submissive wife” testimonies? Personally, I consider the Bible recommendation “be obedient to your husband, it will liberate you” to be total BS. But apparently, you’re right, some women feel good about being dominated (in my very frank opinion, these women have never tasted freedom in their life and their attitude is a result of extensive brain-washing by the patriarchal and sexist media, legislation, customs, etc).

    In the broader socio-economic context, it is clear that women’s subservience does not serve them power. Power is generally defined as the ability to control the outcomes in your life. So, high STD rates (I’m not talking about prostitutes) indicate that women are not in a position of power to negotiate use of a condom. Today, out of all the Thai women who will be battered, many won’t speak out about it: that’s not power, it’s subservience. And I don’t see how that subservience is power. And if Thai cultural values give women real power, it would have been way before 2007 that rape law recognized marital rape.

  33. Actually, I specifically said that if anyone believes Thai women is subservient they don’t understand true power. They’re not subservient. Farang women tend to view them as subservient when in reality Thai women have as much or more control in the relationship as any farang woman.

    The examples I gave showed that things like humility, putting other people ahead of yourself, etc, are things many people don’t associate with being powerful yet some of the most powerful people in the world share that trait.

    True power is the ability to get people to do things without threats, coercion, or fear. What most people associate in their minds with power are exactly the things I just mentioned (threats, coercion, and fear). Bill Clinton could easily used his perceived power to get his way but he often chooses to use his true power (charisma and getting people to like him and thus want to help him).

    The difference is that in their culture many of the things that farang women consider to be subservient are normal for them. Because farang women view power as conflict. For a farang woman to have power in a relationship it has to be via dominance. That’s why many of the women who come to sites like this and immediately set their comments on flame-thrower tend to use women like Margaret Thatcher or Hillary Clinton as examples of strong women.

    Thai women have a better understanding of true power. Part of that is because they live in a male dominated society. Either way, it allows (or forces) them to seek power via alternative channels. They are more likely to take the model of someone like Nancy Reagan who played a rather quiet role in public but was well known to influence many of her husband’s policies and decisions. Some have even suggested that she ran the presidency in the last part of his second term.

    But, to be honest, it’s not just Thai women. Even as a farang living in Thailand you learn that to get your way here you play by Thai rules. Confrontation is to be avoided at all costs. I see farangs pounding desks and getting all red in the face with Thais and it gets them nowhere. And then I see a farang handle the same situation with humility and allowing for the other side to save face and they get (mostly) what they want.

    A lot of what farang women perceive as subservience is actually just how Thais (men and women) deal with certain issues. I think it has far more to do with the Thai Buddhism mentality than outright subservience. If you talk with Thais they will tell you about things like making merit and karma (though many don’t call it karma, the idea is pretty much what we view as karma). I know I’m probably perverting Buddhism a bit here but for them it’s like a giant bank of good deeds. They always want to have a positive balance. Thai women often view relationships in the same context.

    I’m not really sure where you’re going with STD rates. In most cases it has little to do with power to negotiate and everything to do with ignorance. That’s why there are several initiatives in the country to go into the rural areas and educate both men and women about condom usage. That has more to do with lack of education and a socially conservative mindset.

    And your examples about women speaking out about being battered is not 100% attributable to the same factors as it would be in the US or Europe. Thais don’t complain about a lot of things. They don’t complain about corruption. They don’t complain about graft. They don’t complain about patronage, nepotism, etc, etc. These are things that effect both men and women yet you seldom hear meaningful public outcry over them. So, in that culture, it is not surprising that battered women don’t speak out more often.

    And believe me, I’m usually the first one to say “Why do you guys put up with this bullshit?” so I don’t condone anything including battery. But you also have to keep in mind this is a country where you often have to pay just for the police to do their job. Women not speaking out on battery is going to be heavily influenced by the fact that they don’t believe they’ll receive any justice. And since neither male nor female is guaranteed justice in Thailand it’s hard to say that it’s a female subservience issue.

    Really, nearly every point you’ve made in your last paragraph about broader socio-economic issues has a lot more to do with wider problems in Thailand than having anything to do specifically with women or the issue of subservience.

  34. Ruai got it right.

    I can’t believe anyone would ever bring up Hillary Clinton or Margaret Thatcher as positive female rolemodels. Jesus!

    Why do some Western women feel so uncomfortable with their own femininity? I guess it is society telling you that the feminine is weak? I know a lot of women feel like they can’t be themselves (feminine), without society somehow judging them for being weak. That’s a damn shame.

  35. Ruai and Jack,
    I think it’s up to each woman to determine what kind of woman she wants to be, whether or not it matches to your ideal of femininity is something else.
    Personally, I don’t want to be imposed any model of femininity, and I bet you don’t appreciate either being imposed masculinity stereotypes like “real men don’t cry” or “a real man is good at sports”. Just like some Asian men may be fed up of the Asian masculinity stereotype of the breadwinner. So if some women decide to live our their femininity in their own way, like Hillary Clinton, who are you to say that she is “uncomfortable” with the path she’s chosen? While I am fully able to lower my eyes and put on a “shy and sweet virgin” look on my face (I do it regularly when I meet Thai men aged over 40 whom I want to like me), that’ s when I’m not being myself. I feel more like the woman I am when on my motorbike with my hair in the wind, but that’s just me.
    If you read Annette Hamilton’s “Primal dream” she studies how Farang men are in Thailand to play out their now-outdated ideal model of masculinity (i.e. the real man conquering lots of sexual prey while consuming alcohol served by man-dependent women). So, if you guys appreciate being able to play out your ideal model of masculinity, I tend to think you should respect that other people also have their own choice and freedom in this area.

  36. @BKK Blue: I have no problem whatsoever with how women play out their femininity. That was not the issue. What I do have a problem with is when that model involves insulting and belittling others. I don’t think you’ve done that and I think most the comments here have been pretty respectful of that fact but at the same time look around you. If I had a baht for every time I’ve heard a farang woman refer to or openly treat Thai women like ignorant whores I would be under investigation by the Thai government for having unusual wealth 🙂

    Seriously, I was out one night with a girl I was dating who had a master’s degree in English Literature. Her English was very, very good. Yet this farang woman we had the displeasure of dining with spoke to her like she was retarded. It was quite obvious that she felt superior to Thai women and kept asking embarrassing and rude questions the entire evening.

    The girl I was with handled the entire experience like a lady. She never showed any signs of being insulted or even startled at the stupidity of the other woman’s questions but when we walked out of the restaurant she turned to me and said “What a fucking cunt.”

    You’re right, we don’t have to accept the gender roles society puts on us. I know more than a few Thai women who would have called the other woman a cunt to her face and walked out. But it’s because Thailand has so many women (and men, too) who prefer to keep their calm in situations like this that I think so many men are attracted to them.

    Even in myself, I tend to be someone who prefers very blunt and direct interactions with others. But I’ve learned to become far more diplomatic and reserved since experiencing Thailand. Many of my friends back home have even commented on the fact that I seem different every time I come back from Thailand.

    And that different person simply prefers to avoid the confrontational style of femininity back home. I don’t want to be in a relationship with a woman that is always setting out to prove she has testicles as big as mine. I don’t want to negotiate who does the dishes and who takes out the trash.

    I’ve had those types of relationships my entire life and I’ve never been happy. I prefer it when my gf makes the bed in the morning without having to sit down at a negotiating table to see what chore I now have to perform so that she can feel confident she’s not getting screwed over in the relationship with an unfair amount of the chores. I don’t like it because I think it’s a woman’s job but because she cares.

    You seemed to word your adaptation to Thailand as burying your true identity while I look at the way Thailand has changed me as a positive change. I can still come online and get blunt if I want to or be direct in business dealings back home if I feel that course of action will yield the best results but in terms of my day to day life with farang friends and the Thai people in my life, I do prefer the sabai sabai model.

  37. For me, what Asia in general, and Thailand specifically, has done is confirmed what I have always felt growing up in the west as a man. It has relieved my mind from all the BS in the west when it comes to women. I do not feel the pressure to have to go out of my way to get in bed with a farang woman, I do not feel that I have to change my natural feelings just to do or say the politically correct thing in front of women. I am not rude in any way, I just feel a lot more sure about being myself. As a result I have found that this attitude has actually attracted more western women to me in the west, like the UK and the US, than ever before.

    I do not understand when most of my married friends, or friends with GFs, tell me : She “lets me” go out with my friend, she “lets me” do a hobby or two….Do you guys believe this? The women “lets them” do things.. as if men are dogs or cats and they are “allowed” to do things?

    Just finished dating a “Korean” lady who is around 35 years of age. Very nice looking, but her attitude was just like any other white woman, I found that she almost combind the worst of the korean and western cultures in one….

    So, it seems the culture is what makes women and men for that matter the way they are in the west or in the east…I ask my self, and so far I believe it to be true!

  38. @Ruai: I would imagine it is very easy for a Thai woman to get her pre-pregnancy figureback, it would be easy for any woman if she popped out the sprog and handed it straight over to a nanny leaving her free to spend her days working out in California wow.

  39. I’m another western woman who’s lived in Thailand for almost 7 years and, honestly, I disagree with most of what you say.

    I have many western male friends who are nothing like the stereotypes you portray. I also have tons of Thai female friends (I’m guessing you don’t have any?) and none of them are the ‘docile, pretty type’ you talk about. Some of my Thai female friends can be stronger and bitchier than any western woman I’ve met.

    You sound unhappy in Thailand. Maybe it’s just not a good fit for you? I’ve met several western women here who all seem to have the same attitude you do – and they’ve all ended up bitter, angry and consequently ugly. Thank God that’s not me!

  40. Hi Sara. Your inference is incorrect. Many women in the world “spring back” easily. I worked with several and one 3 days after giving birth was back into her pre-pregnancy clothes!

    mando6971 has it right. There is in the West a movement to “control” men. Force them into inferior “wage slave positions”.

    Thai women being subservient: http://blog.okizoo.com/2008/10/10/thai-girls-cut-off-penis-videothai-girls-cut-off-penis-video/

    http://www.thaimed.us/thai-girls-cut-off-penis-video/2007/12/08/

    So much for that myth!!

    I did notice in BKK Blue’s begining that ageism was part of her complaint. What does she have against older gentlemen?
    What is wrong with the social skill to have a person feel good about themselves?
    Western women have been undone by the PC and sexual political arena which has left bodies sprawled upon the battlefield. The politics have not done what they were supposed to because they made people into sexless robots.
    Is it because in the West we are to see older people as sexless? Or is it the feeling that this goes against the PC notion of “age appropriate” which robs people of choice. Is it the “alpha male syndrome that enforced the notion that only the Alpha male deserves a intelligent, attractive lover?

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